# Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538 "2017-10-27T10:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 69
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1376 "2018-02-15T21:44:37Z")
Yes, and he did good work tracing out what looks very much like and RMT operation. But that does not explain _why_ CCP would tolerate RMT. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1377 "2018-02-15T21:45:30Z")
> [@Zircon\_Dasher](#): > > Just to refresh your ailing memory, looking at the ISK delta stuff was because you thought greedygoblin statistical analysis and data gathering methodologies were really good All the graphs are accurate. Nothing wrong with his data gathering, ---
**Author:** ![Zircon\_Dasher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zircon_dasher/32/36736_2.png) [@Zircon\_Dasher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zircon_Dasher)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1378 "2018-02-15T21:49:59Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > All the graphs are accurate. Nothing wrong with his data gathering If I want to examine the causes of global warming, collecting the number of pirates named Blue Beard probably isn’t sound data gathering. Even if you want to plot the two values against each other. It just doesn’t matter if you get the numbers right ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1379 "2018-02-15T21:55:32Z")
> [@Zircon\_Dasher](#): > > It just doesn’t matter if you get the numbers right His graphs are the only part I have been concerned with. And afaik, they are accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Zircon\_Dasher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zircon_dasher/32/36736_2.png) [@Zircon\_Dasher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zircon_Dasher)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1380 "2018-02-15T22:10:26Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > That’s not how it works. > > That his conclusions may be wrong, does not mean the process and data issued in it was wrong. > > I completely agree he made an unsubstantiated leap to his stated conclusions. > > But I do not agree that the stats he posted and his method was unsound, or false. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1381 "2018-02-15T22:15:31Z")
You are misreading 🙂 The graphs are accurate, and all I’m concerned with 🙂 FYI: Process IS the graphs. Not his interpretation of them, or conclusions derived from them. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale\_Pirannha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dinsdale_pirannha/32/254927_2.png) [@Dinsdale\_Pirannha](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dinsdale_Pirannha)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1382 "2018-02-15T22:22:29Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Yes, and he did good work tracing out what looks very much like and RMT operation. > > But that does not explain _why_ CCP would tolerate RMT. Why would CCP tolerate RMT? CCP states that credit card fraud and account hacking are the biggest problems with RMT. So watch a particular scene in Clear and Present Danger, the one where Cortez and Cutter meet. If CCP has accepted that RMT will always be something they can’t completely stamp out, and if a certain group ran an RMT web site that was credit card fraud/ account hacking free, well, you do the math. ---
**Author:** ![Zircon\_Dasher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zircon_dasher/32/36736_2.png) [@Zircon\_Dasher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zircon_Dasher)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1383 "2018-02-15T22:31:19Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > FYI: Process IS the graphs. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1384 "2018-02-15T22:46:13Z")
> [@Dinsdale\_Pirannha](#): > > So watch a particular scene in Clear and Present Danger, the one where Cortez and Cutter meet. > > If CCP has accepted that RMT will always be something they can’t completely stamp out, and if a certain group ran an RMT web site that was credit card fraud/ account hacking free, well, you do the math. You are suggesting that CCP is complicit in a criminal organization/activity? Ooookay. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1385 "2018-02-15T22:54:28Z")
> [@Mathra](#): > > In answer to your question, whether this is RMT or contract scamming. Its plex laundering, bring the guy up I linked, bring his contract history up > > In the case of the contract you’ve linked A1 Dabs is the guy who made the contract. (issued by) Buburuzza is the guy who accepted the contracted. > > A1 Dabs made a contract where he passes some worthless charges to Buburuzza in return for 1500 plex and a token payment of 3 mill - Infact, their are two contracts made at the same time by A1 Dabs and both are accepted at the same time by Buburuzza, so infact 2500 plex are passed from A1 Dabs to Buburuzza for some worthless charges > > ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/6/c/6c99ad51a89525f013d20263a509a4e3040a014a.PNG) > > Now, as a rule, the RMT’er will actually ask the buyer of the isk to make the contract, which they fill a couple of minutes later. so bearing that in mind as A1 Dabs isn’t following this rule you need to dig a bit deeper > > Having brought the contract up, then click on buburuzza who accepted the contract and now look at his contract history > > . > > ![Picture1](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/3/0/307d0a7057df566966a300c78d45fb63c1021cfb.jpg) > > Now were starting to get somewhere as you will notice all the contracts for Buburuzza were made by other people and he accepted them. > > Click on anyone of his contracts and you start to see those that set up the contracts which Buburuzza filled are actual, long term players as a rule > > A1 Dabs was laundering the plexs over to other accounts which they are running. These accounts in turn are starting to become the sellers > > So from the top of their contracts, working your way through them by latest first. > > Sebieska received 2500 plex off Buburuzza, payment being some worthless charges > Cookiebobo Pappot 15 skill injectors, again for worthless payment > Mr Snowball 12 bill in isk, in return for 48 mill of hangar rubbish > eh bay 5 Injectors > Niki Casttle 500 plex > Calum Macleaod 8 skill injectors > Rilariel Vanacaris 5 bill isk > Misaka Mainbrain 25 bill isk > Alex Moldo 5 skill injectors and 2 bill isk > Rilariel Vanacaris 5 bill isk (second purchase) > Tobi Saru 1000 plex > Calum Macleaod 7 skill injectors (second purchase) > C’ynergi Rah’Ambr 12 bill > Graham1987 4 bill > Kurto Lee 6 skill injectors > Pietie Pompie 10 skill injectors > > so, between 27.01.18 and 13.2.18 a total of 56 skill injectors (45 bill) , 4,000 plex (14.5 bill) and 65 bill - total 124.5 bill passed > > Now, if you remember, A1 Dabs wasn’t selling, they were actually laundering, basically moving stuff around. If we go back to his contract history and look more closely at the other toons he moved stuff to in his contract history, then: > > I Duke is his alt, who has - 12 RMT contracts to 6 players over the same period totalling 30 bill > Lexa Hot, again his alt, - 5 RMT contracts to 2 players totalling 10 Bill > Ryan Rummy, again his alt, 23 RMT contracts to 10 players over the same period totalling 51 bill > Jayden Tank, again his alt, 13 RMT contracts to 8 players over the same period totalling 31 bill > Axel Naga, again his alt, 15 RMT contracts to 7 players over the same period totalling 43 bill > Evil Smithy, again his alt, 1 RMT contracts to 1 players over the same period totalling 1 bill > > So now we have from the first guy, links to 7 toons controlled by the seller, 290 bill passed recently to 46 buyers. So, we should have here 7 toons banned, 290 bill clawed back > > And… its a lot more complex than this. I’ve reported Axel Naga numerous times over the last 6 months as the toon is used as a market bot, one of 100 plus market bots all operating under the ‘user’ which I linked evidentially and gave their details to CCP - the bulk were banned (and have since been replaced with more alpha toons) in the purge which happened a couple of weeks ago. Alexa Naga wasn’t banned and slipped through their net > > He’s currently logged into Jita local as he always is, 24/7 > > So don’t think this is one individual above, A1 Dabs is just one toon in a huge botting network, probably numbering several hundred market bots, which is being run as a business by a single enterprise. Think of the time management and resources needed to run such a business - someones invested heavily in this and they wont walk away without a fight now as its turnover is obviously very good > > And any good business will edge their bets and have several income streams. So the same enterprise could also be responsible for the wealth of hauler, explorer or faction warefare bots. Likewise they will have multiple launderers and sellers, so again don’t think this is the total isk they are moving daily, its just the tip of the iceberg > > BTW, this took me an hour to find and un-pick from one single toon which I picked at random from Jita local. Think what I could find if I started to look hard. I lay my wife to rest on Friday, so I will have plenty of time in the future to start really digging if needs must Whats going to be done about this? (Aside from burying it behind gish and thread merging) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale\_Pirannha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dinsdale_pirannha/32/254927_2.png) [@Dinsdale\_Pirannha](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dinsdale_Pirannha)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1386 "2018-02-16T00:01:47Z")
RMT is not a criminal activity in most countries. Credit card fraud is. ---
**Author:** ![Baba\_Ji](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/baba_ji/32/36487_2.png) [@Baba\_Ji](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Baba_Ji)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1387 "2018-02-16T03:06:29Z")
Is this a suggestion that these are legit companies that pay taxes? Idk thats why I ask ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1388 "2018-02-16T03:38:36Z")
And in most countries helping those who commit crimes is itself a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 8:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1389 "2018-02-16T08:36:22Z")
This thread should be full of kms of botting fleets and heads on spikes. If Dinsdale knows so much, why doesnt he ever do anything about it? Teckos and Salvos between them have enough energy to evaporate carrier fleets alone! MOBILISE people! ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1390 "2018-02-16T13:19:46Z")
LOL, i said this earlier too. If bots were constantly identified and destroyed it would make it expensive to use one. But then i suppose If it is linked with RMT and plex then it is a question of how much one can afford. It seems to me Devs are happy to waste time investigating bots when Bots shouldnt have had access to the game in the first place. No player wants to kill a Bot, they want to analyse how the bot makes money and how it will affect the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale\_Pirannha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dinsdale_pirannha/32/254927_2.png) [@Dinsdale\_Pirannha](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dinsdale_Pirannha)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1391 "2018-02-16T15:34:56Z")
I don’t now where you are going with this. If someone set up a web site in one of many many countries where RMT is not illegal, did not engage in hacking or credit card fraud, strictly RMT, and they also registered as a company, and paid taxes, then there would be zero legal issues for said company. Now imagine if that company was run by an ingame organization that had tons of botters inside their ingame corp, and they taxed them at say, 15%. The in-game corp would not even have to buy ISK, though of course they could, since they would have a massive ISK flow just from taxes. That group would be very very reluctant to report botters. And if they had a clean record and understanding with CCP about no hacking/ no credit card fraud, CCP would be inclined to look the other way, especially if that ingame organization had a superior spy network which allowed them to identify botters in other organizations, which they could then feed to CCP. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1392 "2018-02-16T15:59:50Z")
See that is a much better narrative. In fact, it is not unlike the cops using snicthes/“confidential informants”. And look you didn’t need to invoke the possibility of CCP being involved with an actual criminal activity. ---
**Author:** ![Baba\_Ji](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/baba_ji/32/36487_2.png) [@Baba\_Ji](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Baba_Ji)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1393 "2018-02-16T16:57:07Z")
That does create a problem. Why would I or any other as a player willingly pay for a subscription if that wasn’t openly known? It was no where mentioned to be the case or advertised as such. What is advertised is that Eve online is a sandbox created and driven by the players. Not a select group of players. It wouldn’t matter if the contracted RMT company pays legit taxes. Though they personally wouldn’t have the consequence of burden. CCP and Eve online would. It is often the case that corporations don’t know what each hand is doing. Just as true of their contractors and subsidiary’s. The mention of fraud can never be ruled out because it can’t in many cases be proven or disproven. If the scenario you described has truth it can be construed as complicity and I dare say collusion. To manipulate markets and sway the direction and amount of revenue about a game derived on player creation. To be used as a source of revenue for a 3rd party might just be a crime. Just the suggestion can be enough to have a company be prodded to change its practices. Hopefully that isn’t the case. Many honest players involving hundreds of millions of dollars in subscriptions will have been misled into going forward based on the known advertising as true. ---
**Author:** ![Zircon\_Dasher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zircon_dasher/32/36736_2.png) [@Zircon\_Dasher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zircon_Dasher)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1394 "2018-02-16T17:11:57Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > This thread should be full of kms of botting fleets and heads on spikes. I scrolled up a ways, but did not see links to your kills. Can you repost? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1395 "2018-02-16T19:28:34Z")
Im a lover, not a fighter babes x In all seriousness, when someone feels like coming up with a solid way to do it, Im in that queue. Thing is, Im not very good at this game, so my plans would suck. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=68) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=70)