# Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538 "2017-10-27T10:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![Zircon\_Dasher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zircon_dasher/32/36736_2.png) [@Zircon\_Dasher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zircon_Dasher)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1620 "2018-04-10T14:20:46Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Thanks, saves me having to repeat my proposals Too bad it won’t stop you from spamming your ‘proposals’ though 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1621 "2018-04-10T14:24:21Z")
> [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](#): > > > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > > > But a bot cant, due to them being drawn from a pool of several different minigames, and each being randomized by color/figures/shapes/movement per instance > > You’re just going to change the bar from “stupid programmer can write a bot” to “half-decent programmer can write a bot”, while annoying paying customers and alpha clowns. I know enough about bots, to say that no conventional bot will be able to solve the 5 minigames I posted pics of above. They especially wont be able to solve them if they have to detect which specific minigame happens to popup and the colors/shapes/position/figures change everytime, and even better if they involve motion in the minigame itself. None of these minigames are as simple as captcha to just enter the figures shown. All of them involve moving elements in the minigame, and recognising what goes where among random variables. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1622 "2018-04-10T14:25:22Z")
> [@Zircon\_Dasher](#): > > Too bad it won’t stop you from spamming your ‘proposals’ though 🤣 Sorry if fighting bots hurts your interests. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_dunning_kruger/32/414724_2.png) [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Dunning_Kruger)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1623 "2018-04-10T14:29:04Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > I know enough about bots, to say that no bot will be able to solve the 5 minigames I posted pics of above. Really? I could automate all of those in a matter of a few hours at most. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > They especially wont be able to solve them if they have to detect which specific minigame happens to popup and the colors/shapes/position/figures change everytime, and even better if they involve motion in the minigame itself. You’re just making it harder for the morons CCP is targeting these days, which isn’t a bad thing, but it’s not going to have the showstopper effect on bots that you think it will have. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > All of them involve moving elements in the minigame, and recognising what goes where among random variables. Sounds like comparable to a mid-level AI assignment that students get. ---
**Author:** ![Vendi\_Crieg](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vendi_crieg/32/62149_2.png) [@Vendi\_Crieg](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vendi_Crieg)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1624 "2018-04-10T14:36:37Z")
I don’t like the idea of mining mini-games because it adds a new layer of tedium to an already tedious and boring task for those of us that do it legitimately. In my mind, I feel like it punishes legitimate players for the sake of trying to foil fairly sophisticated software what will eventually find a way around it anyhow. Furthermore, it seems like implementing a mini-game puts the burden on the players when it is really CCPs responsibility to implement their own counter-measures behind the scenes while also reducing the level of impact to the customer. Mining is already boring enough, let’s not make it worse. If there were some sort of program that allowed players to review data and help detect bots, I’d happily donate some of my Eve time to help make the game a better place for everyone. However, I realize that is probably not a great idea for a number of reasons 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1625 "2018-04-10T14:38:44Z")
> [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](#): > > Really? I could automate all of those in a matter of a few hours at most. Ok. Create the mini-games as I proposed, include random colors/figures/shapes/configuration/motion, and then design a bot that can solve all of them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_dunning_kruger/32/414724_2.png) [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Dunning_Kruger)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1626 "2018-04-10T14:39:13Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Create the mini-games as I proposed, include random colors/figures/shapes/configuration/motion, and then design a bot that can solve all of them. Are you going to pay me for my troubles? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1627 "2018-04-10T14:39:59Z")
> [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](#): > > > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > > > Create the mini-games as I proposed, include random colors/figures/shapes/configuration/motion, and then design a bot that can solve all of them. > > Are you going to pay me for my troubles? No, I wont pay you. But you claimed you can do it. Prove it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_dunning_kruger/32/414724_2.png) [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Dunning_Kruger)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1628 "2018-04-10T14:41:11Z")
Why would I waste several hours of my time just to prove something I don’t even care about? That’s not much incentive there, now is it? Pay me and I’ll do it. Don’t pay me and I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1629 "2018-04-10T15:19:36Z")
> [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](#): > > Don’t pay me and I won’t. Then dont. But that also means your claims have no credence. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_dunning_kruger/32/414724_2.png) [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Dunning_Kruger)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1630 "2018-04-10T15:37:26Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > But that also means your claims have no credence. They do to everyone with at least basic knowledge about the matter and I won’t work for free just to convince you of the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1631 "2018-04-10T15:39:15Z")
If you cant conceive of a set of minigames with variables no conventional bot can overcome, you arent much of a programmer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_dunning_kruger/32/414724_2.png) [@The\_Dunning\_Kruger](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Dunning_Kruger)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1632 "2018-04-10T16:16:52Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > If you cant conceive of a set of minigames with variables no conventional bot can overcome, you arent much of a programmer. You are ridiculous. It was you that came up with the whole minigame stuff and me that said it’s not going to matter, as I can easily build a bot that will break your minigame. I never claimed it to be a “conventional” bot. And it’s dead easy to come up with a minigame that no bot can ever overcome. The problem just is that no human will be able to either, because the thing will be literally unsolvable. Anything less can be automated. Salvos, you’re not a programmer and you have very limited knowledge about the subject at hand. Why don’t you just leave it at that and move on? ---
**Author:** ![Ivan\_Bloodguard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ivan_bloodguard/32/49954_2.png) [@Ivan\_Bloodguard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ivan_Bloodguard)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1633 "2018-04-10T18:14:45Z")
I’m officially now a big fan of bots. Tears is tears and this topic is a big ol’ bucketful. ---
**Author:** ![Zircon\_Dasher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zircon_dasher/32/36736_2.png) [@Zircon\_Dasher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zircon_Dasher)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1634 "2018-04-10T19:32:54Z")
> [@Ivan\_Bloodguard](#): > > I’m officially now a big fan of bots. Tears is tears and this topic is a big ol’ bucketful. Thus why botting threads are in the top 3 most common threads. Right next to banking and wardecs If its a botting related thread, it is a trolling thread. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 9:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1635 "2018-04-11T09:30:27Z")
A mixed bag of distinct minigame popups, each including random/moving elements, will stump bots. CCP can update them however often they need to, so as to invalidate solutions botters have developed to solve them. For example: ![Dial](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/c/1/c16ed9b58837a6b37476a5e371b564eb5f0c509e.jpg) In the minigame above, CCP can randomize the colors/characters of the characters to be aligned and their starting location, make each ring a random non-mono color or an image (such as using the existing avatar backgrounds), and randomize the orientation of the brackets within which the figures/discs need to be moved to align. Once you are satisfied with alignment of the figures in the brackets, you must submit the result. If you failed, a new distinct separate minigame will popup, which again has several inbuilt random variables specific to that minigame. ---
**Author:** ![Phollocks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phollocks/32/160954_2.png) [@Phollocks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phollocks)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 9:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1636 "2018-04-11T09:40:49Z")
I have no dog in this fight (and generally I’d be more likely to side with a smart enough minigame winning against AI) but this example - as you’ve described it - would be painfully easy to defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 9:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1637 "2018-04-11T09:41:34Z")
> [@Phollocks](#): > > but this example - as you’ve described it - would be painfully easy to defeat. I dont agree. Also, what does “painfully easy” even mean? Another option would be to remove the characters, and instead to rotate the discs so they align as a complete image. This would be one of many possible minigames drawn as random from the pool as a popup. Even if one bot can defeat one, they will be faced with a distinct and different minigame, with very different characteristics to solve, the next time the popup occurs. ---
**Author:** ![Phollocks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phollocks/32/160954_2.png) [@Phollocks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phollocks)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 9:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1638 "2018-04-11T09:50:10Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > I dont agree. In your example, the bot would only need to find the lines (easy) and then find the position of the digits by looking for changes in the colour (easy) and then calculate the rotation to align them all (also easy). Which part of the example is supposed to be difficult for a bot to solve? Out of interest, do you know any programming at all? Or how colours are represented digitally? Do you have any first hand experience of this kind of thing? > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Another option would be to remove the characters, and instead to rotate the discs so they align as a complete image. This is a step closer towards a sensible solution. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 9:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/1639 "2018-04-11T09:51:43Z")
> [@Phollocks](#): > > This is a step closer towards a sensible solution. Good. Now we are making progress. How about also increasing the number of discs from 3 to 5? Does that not make it exponentially more difficult for a bot? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=80) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=82)