# Eve Concurrent Average Online under 20k now :( **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 22, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056 "2019-08-22T22:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/61 "2019-08-24T12:48:19Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Heh, yeah I’m a bot or bot aspirant, nice try at portraying my statements out of context. Not taking it out of context. Just thinking why else would you go tinfoil full-retard because your isk/hour was nerfed. Whenever anyones income gets nerfed it’s because ccp want them to buy plex? Or is it just different when its you because ccp are out to get you? ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 1:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/62 "2019-08-24T13:16:37Z")
Wow, you just won’t quit, I’ll give you credit on that. Anyway, you’re doing it again, portraying my statements out of context. I’ve been a mission runner / explorer in this game since I first started playing. The statement about my ISK per hr getting nerfed over time was in response to your allegation that there’s an overabundance of materials and ISK in the game. I’m not even going to address the rest of your post since your implying I meant something else completely different than what I originally stated, thus once again you’re portraying my statements out of context… You do know what the Butterfly Effect is, right? ---
**Author:** ![Agondray](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/agondray/32/414989_2.png) [@Agondray](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Agondray)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/63 "2019-08-24T14:39:23Z")
To be fair eve started going down way back when CCP said “we are at a point now we can lose people” along with the constant encouragement of being the bad guy, the ganking meta game in empire, the blue doughnut in null, and now they are doing everything possible “when you long into eve, we want it so stressful you have to take medication to play” ---
**Author:** ![Punctator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/punctator/32/357072_2.png) [@Punctator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Punctator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/64 "2019-08-24T14:48:31Z")
they are idiots… and this is our - players - tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/65 "2019-08-24T16:52:00Z")
That’s obviously not true though. When ccp said it was ok to lose people it was ages ago, perhaps before 2012. Dig up the quote and have a look. The encouragement to be the bad guy was in the last few years when we we’re already losing people. And ganking nerfs have been implemented multiple times after numbers started falling and never once have they lead to more players. Despite numerous attempts, there has never been any evidence to support that ganking hurts player retention. In all honesty, your post is horse ■■■■. You couldn’t back up any of it. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Anyway, you’re doing it again, portraying my statements out of context. I’ll quote you where im coming from: > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > All of that content is scripted, designed and implemented to destroy player assets, which will then hopefully cause players to purchase even more PLEX just to replenish their in-game wallets and assets. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Basically it’s the Butterfly effect, all designed to boost the bottom line of CCP’s payoff from PA. So you think ccp design the game to make players poor so that they have to plex. And then here’s you saying it’s happening to you. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > My average ISK per hr income has been drastically nerfed over the years and is now barely 1/3rd of what it use to be. In fact on a few different occasions I’ve had to buy PLEX just to buff my wallet so I can actually do things in-game. Or are you saying that the way ccp **design** the game to make players plex their accounts and your impression that your game play has been nerfed such that you **had** to buy plex are not at all connected? I took that out of context did i? I didn’t come here to sling mud. Just wondered what made you so bitter. To find out you’ve gone this far tinfoil and then trollish level of ignorant/dishonest over the economy and bots because ‘ccp nurfed ma ticks’ is just making me think ‘wtf?!’ ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/66 "2019-08-24T17:05:37Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > In all honesty, your post is horse ■■■■. You couldn’t back up any of it. > > > Anyway, you’re doing it again, portraying my statements out of context. > > I’ll quote you where im coming from: > > > All of that content is scripted, designed and implemented to destroy player assets, which will then hopefully cause players to purchase even more PLEX just to replenish their in-game wallets and assets. > > > Basically it’s the Butterfly effect, all designed to boost the bottom line of CCP’s payoff from PA. > > So you think ccp design the game to make players poor so that they have to plex. > > And then here’s you saying it’s happening to you. > > > My average ISK per hr income has been drastically nerfed over the years and is now barely 1/3rd of what it use to be. In fact on a few different occasions I’ve had to buy PLEX just to buff my wallet so I can actually do things in-game. > > Or are you saying that the way ccp **design** the game to make players plex their accounts and your impression that your game play has been nerfed such that you **had** to buy plex are not at all connected? > > I took that out of context did i? Ouch … nailed to a cross. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/67 "2019-08-24T17:42:09Z")
No, you keep putting the cart in front of the horse. You said there’s an overabundance of materials and ISK in the game to which I disagree due to my own experience. I then stated why I feel that way by telling you how my average ISK per hr has dropped over the years to the point that I sometimes buy PLEX to buff my wallet in order to do stuff in-game. That’s it, end of that topic. Second part was saying that Bots and RMT are running rampant in the game which is causing an overabundance of materials and ISK in the game. I find that very hard to believe, especially since CCP has been supposedly conducting a ‘War On Bots’ for the past 11 years that I’ve been in this game. Next saying all the recent ‘Chaos’ stuff that CCP has been implementing is accredited to stopping bots. I say BS on that because CCP can easily just ban those accounts, which they were supposedly doing in the past. So I decided to follow the trail of the Butterfly Effect and venture down the rabbit hole. CCP needs to show x amount of profit to get big payday from PA. Everybody knows this. Meanwhile player log in numbers have been steadily dropping, everybody knows that too. CCP creates new content that is scripted and designed to destroy/disrupt player assets. CCP implements that content under the guise of ‘chaos shaking things up’ which will also help combat a now very large bot problem. That to me seems very convenient. However since this new chaos content is implemented to randomly attack player assets, eventually players will need to replace their assets, hopefully by purchasing PLEX. That will buff CCP’s bottom line which then insures a big payoff from PA. That’s it, tin-foil wizards hat off. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/68 "2019-08-24T18:38:11Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > You said there’s an overabundance of materials and ISK in the game to which I disagree due to my own experience. I then stated why I feel that way by telling you how my average ISK per hr has dropped over the years to the point that I sometimes buy PLEX to buff my wallet in order to do stuff in-game. Read the MER’s. Production has consistently been triple that of destruction since before the MER’s were released. Even before the rorqual balances. The isk generation from null ratting has been flooding the game with isk and has been a common topic for such for years. It commonly appears on these forums and in gaming media external to INN and EN24. The amount of Isk in the game and how easy it is to rat in null has been attributed to the rise in plex prices (and then the fall in plex prices when the blackout came). Players have lots of isk, but not much to trade it on save PLEX. If you still don’t believe there is an overabundance, you need to get your head out your arse. At this point it’s wilful ignorance. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Second part was saying that Bots and RMT are running rampant in the game which is causing an overabundance of materials and ISK in the game. I find that very hard to believe, especially since CCP has been supposedly conducting a ‘War On Bots’ for the past 11 years that I’ve been in this game. > **[Bots are threatening EVE Online's economy and players are fed up](https://www.pcgamer.com/bots-are-threatening-eve-onlines-economy-and-players-are-fed-up/)** > > Players are fuming at developer CCP Games over its inability to thwart a growing problem. When alphas came in there was a big boost to botting. Free accounts are easy to replace if you get banned. This is when fw started seeing more bots and ratting in a vni in nullsec became even more popular. So is it that you don’t understand how botting effects the supply of isk/materials in the game or that you don’t believe bots use alpha accounts? Tell me which bit you’re struggling with. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > CCP needs to show x amount of profit to get big payday from PA. Everybody knows this. Meanwhile player log in numbers have been steadily dropping, everybody knows that too. CCP creates new content that is scripted and designed to destroy/disrupt player assets. CCP implements that content under the guise of ‘chaos shaking things up’ which will also help combat a now very large bot problem. That to me seems very convenient. However since this new chaos content is implemented to randomly attack player assets, eventually players will need to replace their assets, hopefully by purchasing PLEX. That will buff CCP’s bottom line which then insures a big payoff from PA. The trouble here is that one does not lead to the other. Destroying peoples stuff does not make them buy more plex. Stopping people from ratting and mining has not lead to them buying more plex. Take a look at the in game market. Plex are not selling like hot cakes. Plex trading is not going up. In fact it looks like its going down. After all making isk worth more and plex worth less makes players less likely to trade real life money for plex and more likely to spend time making in game isk. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/69 "2019-08-24T19:27:11Z")
Yeah, done talking with you. Obviously you believe every single word CCP says is the gospel truth. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/70 "2019-08-24T20:14:16Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > When alphas came in there was a big boost to botting. Free accounts are easy to replace if you get banned. This is when fw started seeing more bots and ratting in a vni in nullsec became even more popular. People say this a lot, but I’ve yet to see solid evidence of it. Botting is far more profitable on an Omega account, and even 1 month’s profit easily pays for multiple accounts if one gets banned. Also, the level of earnings on an Alpha bot, to be significant, would mean we need to see thousands of Alpha bots online all the time to have a significant effect - which makes current log-in numbers look even worse. I am advised that the FW alpha bots have a noticeable impact on FW _activity_ and FW _viability_ for actual players, but that is more because they have an outsized impact on the FW plexing mechanics than their actual economic impact on the game (which has been minimal). For anyone interested, here are some quick numbers I pulled from previous notes: (Values in Billions of ISK) ![EVE%20Trade%20Bounty%20MER%202016-2019](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/0/5/05ad2f251d0d8092fb0b77eced0f014ba28cfa9e.png) Obviously (since it is EVE forums) everyone will pull one or two numbers out of there and say they ‘prove’ their favorite point. However, Pre-Alpha and Post-Alpha numbers show that things like LP store costs, Mission Rewards/Bonuses (which would be affected by Alpha mission bots and FW bots) have changed a relatively insignificant amount. The only numbers that are actually significant to the economy are NPC bounties, Commodities (blue loot from sleepers, mostly), and to a much smaller extent, Incursions. I seriously doubt any of those areas are being dominated by Alphas in VNIs. ---
**Author:** ![Agondray](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/agondray/32/414989_2.png) [@Agondray](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Agondray)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/71 "2019-08-24T22:57:07Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Production has consistently been triple that of destruction since before the MER’s were released. Even before the rorqual balances. well when you have multiboxers mining 24/7 and people running 100+ accounts of put production, ofcourse the production is going to out weigh the destruction, until you can get those same people to pvp 24/7 and do it with numerous accounts, its always going to be out of balance. and the bad guy encouragements a lot longer than the past few years and even if the ccp quote was from 2012 its not like they put any great stride towards retention. now with the blackout hitting null sec and their latest interview of “youll need medication to play eve” thats not going to want to make more people stick around. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/72 "2019-08-25T00:09:33Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > People say this a lot, but I’ve yet to see solid evidence of it. Botting is far more profitable on an Omega account, and even 1 month’s profit easily pays for multiple accounts if one gets banned. Also, the level of earnings on an Alpha bot, to be significant, would mean we need to see thousands of Alpha bots online all the time to have a significant effect - which makes current log-in numbers look even worse. In faction warfare and most distribution missions it doesn’t make much of a difference a difference between omega and alpha. Outside of that omegas rat faster yes, but it doesn’t take much to run multiple alphas on a single computer. Alphas scale for free. Your data is missing a lot of months. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/73 "2019-08-25T00:31:33Z")
> [@Agondray](#): > > well when you have multiboxers mining 24/7 and people running 100+ accounts of put production, ofcourse the production is going to out weigh the destruction, until you can get those same people to pvp 24/7 and do it with numerous accounts, its always going to be out of balance. Is a fair point. But doesn’t stop it creating an over supply that can be reduced by say…a null sec black out. > [@Agondray](#): > > and the bad guy encouragements a lot longer than the past few years and even if the ccp quote was from 2012 its not like they put any great stride towards retention. The past 5 years of the game has been heavily focused on retention and the npe. It’s been a frequent section in fan fest. It’s why we got opportunities, a new tutorial with voice acting, buffed corvettes, awox nerfs, new ui, and amongst other things wardecs were nerfed late last year. All in the name of ‘retention’. They even studied why new players were leaving, not amongst them was ‘because bad guys!’ > [@Agondray](#): > > now with the blackout hitting null sec and their latest interview of “youll need medication to play eve” thats not going to want to make more people stick around. Again bull-■■■■. Null players are a small portion of the playerbase and it’s not even all of them that dislike the black out. Something I’ve come to realise is that some null sec players truly feel that the game revolves around them and their playstyle. One even saying ‘the community does not like the blackout’ or words to that effect. Christ man. Get a grip. As for eve being hard and dangerous else where, that’s what initially attracted a lot of players when eve wasn’t dying a slow painful and boring death. It’s what encouraged players to reach out to each other rather than play solo. Trig recons in system, you know what people do that they didn’t before? Start talking in ■■■■■■■ local and telling eachother where they are. Like i said before, the era of chaos will likely remove a lot of the cancer that has been killing eve (non-interactive semi-afk pve farmers seeking eternal safety), and with a bit of luck, it will be replaced by active and chatty content creators. Hopefully this is just the start. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/74 "2019-08-25T00:42:31Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > In faction warfare and most distribution missions it doesn’t make much of a difference a difference between omega and alpha. Outside of that omegas rat faster yes, but it doesn’t take much to run multiple alphas on a single computer. Alphas scale for free. > > Your data is missing a lot of months. I see you still struggle to comprehend real data when it’s numerical (or graphical). Also that you are still only skimming posts to find the quickest point you can disagree with, without actually understanding what was said. The point of the data is to show the difference pre-Alpha (2016) and the trends post-Alpha (2017 and up). Missing months are irrelevant, they’re all in the MERs if you feel up to checking your opinions against actual data. I tossed in the May/June 2019 numbers just because there are a lot of changes in the past couple months. My post mentioned that FW and mission payouts have changed too little to have much impact, and also have changed too little to involve hordes of Alpha bots. As already stated, the only significant sources of ISK are Bounties, Commodities (blue sleeper loot) and to a lesser extent, Incursions. Alpha bots are not a substantial portion of any of these. Also, I’m pretty sure being able to run level 4 and 5 missions is a pretty significant difference between Alpha and Omega. I think a case could be made for a substantial increase in market-bots, but uncertain whether people would be doing that with Alpha accounts or not (you take a pretty big efficiency hit with Alpha). I know it’s hard for you to grasp any argument that disagrees with your preconceptions, but you should give it a whirl once in a while anyway. Builds character. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/75 "2019-08-25T00:50:21Z")
Also in that quote he states that it doesn’t take much to run multiple alphas on a single computer. Unless CCP has recently changed it, players can’t run multiple Alpha accounts on a single computer. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/76 "2019-08-25T00:54:49Z")
Well, without going into details… if one is willing to ignore CCP’s restrictions on botting, then it is also possible to ignore their restrictions on multi-Alphas on a single computer as well. The numbers of Alpha FW bots and (potentially) market bots wouldn’t be happening unless they could run many bots on few computers. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/77 "2019-08-25T01:10:29Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The point of the data is to show the difference pre-Alpha (2016) and the trends post-Alpha (2017 and up). Missing months are irrelevant, they’re all in the MERs if you feel up to checking your opinions against actual data. I tossed in the May/June 2019 numbers just because there are a lot of changes in the past couple months. I did get that. But the missing months make it hard to actually identify trends or significant changes in small periods. Anomalous changes or anything. As presented it doesn’t say much. I haven’t been collecting the data myself and you can surely understand why I’m not about to start now. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > My post mentioned that FW and mission payouts have changed too little to have much impact, and also have changed too little to involve hordes of Alpha bots. That’s something open to interpretation. A massive change in fw spending would look like a small blip in lp store spending over all. Isk sinks is also not a reliable measure of lp spending. Not all lp items require isk and if an alpha is diving into plexes on day one, they may not have cash. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/78 "2019-08-25T01:11:38Z")
Well, I don’t know how botting programs work. Thought the server is what restricts running multiple alpha accounts on a single computer. ---
**Author:** ![SeerinDarkness](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seerindarkness/32/181638_2.png) [@SeerinDarkness](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/SeerinDarkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/79 "2019-08-25T02:26:36Z")
WTB Great Space Game bid .01 isk ---
**Author:** ![Ravid\_Bheskagor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ravid_bheskagor/32/472687_2.png) [@Ravid\_Bheskagor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ravid_Bheskagor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-concurrent-average-online-under-20k-now/185056/80 "2019-08-25T08:35:50Z")
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