# EVE is an easy 7/10 on Josh Strife Hayes' Pay2Win scale **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 24, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032 "2024-03-24T13:24:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 2:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/201 "2024-03-30T14:38:55Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > You keep trying to fall back on ‘player skill’, Not only trying, succeeding too, lol. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > but precisely the grind system you are enamoured with leads to the differential in skills points. Nope, you can have just as many skill points without mining a single unit or killing a single npc. All it takes is an active subscription and maintenance of the training queue. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > A noob player cannot just suddenly ‘grind’ 5 years worth of skills overnight which means someone who is 5 years ahead will stay 5 years ahead for a long time. So ?! Beginning later in EvE doesn’t prevent anyone from being after 5 years where any veteran was after his or her first 5 years. We actually have a living game with continuity, just like in the real world. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I’m expected to pay $240 in my first year…to _still_ be 5 years behind that other guy ? Stuff that. Not at all. You’re expected to pay the equal amount as that other guy did to be where he is. But here’s a surprise: you won’t be able to. It’s going to cost you a lot more cash via microtransactions. And what you won’t have is his experience, his connections etc, since you don’t spend the _time_ compared to what that other guy did. **You seem to believe you’re actually paying for a _result_.** You’re not. That result you seek is a lot more than #sp and #isk and #hulls. p.s. I started **8 years** after the game’s release. The situation was not different then. I knew there were people flying titans, and people being far more knowledgeable in anything EvE. So what ?! If I went to WoW (bob forbid) I’d be in the same situation. I wouldn’t spend an extra dime, I can assure you, but go through the paces of the game as intended - unless they rigged the progress by putting it behind microtransactions, in which case I wouldn’t play it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 2:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/202 "2024-03-30T14:54:42Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > We actually have a living game with continuity, just like in the real world. A real world where some go to Eton and some go to the local secondary school. Its kinda ironic…Eve being the ultimate capitalist dystopia…that ‘fairness’ creeps in. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 2:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/203 "2024-03-30T14:56:52Z")
In EvE it’s perfectly legit to use weapons to amass wealth, haha, no need for Eton or even secondary school 😉 P.S. (again) what I do envy just a tiny bit is the experience the players have who started in 2003. Not for their ships or sp or isk - somehow I don’t find that particularly relevant - but for the fun they had in going through all of it and pioneering it. My loss … ---
**Author:** ![Oskar\_Milde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oskar_milde/32/396309_2.png) [@Oskar\_Milde](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oskar_Milde)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/204 "2024-03-30T15:00:38Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > It’s not ignorant. > It’s the same. Do you have any understanding of what is meant by ‘skipping the grind’ in the usual MMO? If you did, you would understand where it is different. There is no equivalent ‘grind’ in Eve as SP are not gained through repetitive actions / quest cycling. Therefore there is no ‘grind’ in the traditional MMO sense in Eve. In this way, any ‘skip the grind’ mechanism cannot apply to Eve in the same way as a traditional MMO, as the grind is not the same. Do you understand my point now? > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You are moving the goalpost Nope, this has been one of my points throughout this thread. See: > [@Oskar\_Milde](#): > > the general points made are only so relevant when applied to Eve, and the concrete points made about Eve offer far more nuance than parroting Hayes’ points about Diablo Immortal or whatever > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You are again moving the goalpost. I’m really not. When I said ‘you can just as easily, and far more efficiently in the majority of cases, use another real person’ your reply was ‘Except you can’t… You actually NEED it.’ You have not produced a single example of where you ‘NEED’ to use an alt instead of a friend. In any situation where combat is involved, you are better off with a friend than an alt - as they will be more effective. Even lighting a cyno or mining rocks you will have (marginal) efficiency and/or efficacy gains through having a friend over an alt in those roles. The only reason to use an alt over a friend is for convenience, or to keep more isk for yourself. Those are fine reasons, but they do not equate to a ‘NEED’ to do so, and they do not make the use of alts necessarily more efficient - only more convenient (which I did not claim). > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You’re really very good at completely ignoring definition That’s some fine projection friend! Do you disagree that the amount of isk exchanged for Plex in the month of March is insignificant in comparison to the amount of isk generated through other pve activities? ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/205 "2024-03-30T15:11:23Z")
> [@Oskar\_Milde](#): > > Do you have any understanding of what is meant by ‘skipping the grind’ in the usual MMO? If you did, you would understand where it is different. If you did actually read the context, you would understand they are the same. > [@Oskar\_Milde](#): > > There is no equivalent ‘grind’ in Eve as SP are not gained through repetitive actions / quest cycling. Therefore there is no ‘grind’ in the traditional MMO sense in Eve. You are moving the goalpost. The “boost” he talks about (not the grind) refers to something that is acquired in the game. Be it SP, assets, isks, you making it specifically “having to kill rats in a marsh with a 2H staff” is moving the goal post. This CAN be a grind in a grindy game. Does not mean if there is no rats this criterion can’t apply. In Eve, you are prevented from some activities by skills. Being able to pay for SP matches his criterion of boosting. The absence of rat does not mean it does not “truly translate”. That’s completely stupid. > [@Oskar\_Milde](#): > > You have not produced a single example of where you ‘NEED’ to use an alt instead of a friend. Because that’s a mashup of words. In any situation where you NEED another account, you better buy an alt than find a friend. > [@Oskar\_Milde](#): > > Even lighting a cyno or mining rocks you will have (marginal) efficiency and/or efficacy gains through having a friend over an alt in those roles. It’s the opposite. > [@Oskar\_Milde](#): > > Do you disagree that the amount of isk exchanged for Plex in the month of March is insignificant in comparison to the amount of isk generated through other pve activities? It generates 0 isk. It’s not an isk faucet. If anything, it consumes isk when sold on the market. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/206 "2024-03-30T15:13:13Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > the players have who started in 2003 Started in 2005, but got ganked by a 2003 . Does that count sweetie? Zaera **avenged** fangself. ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/8/0/880100d4817e8a7cd5a1e2a9524062bf47aaad91.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/207 "2024-03-30T15:19:07Z")
Of course, sugarbun ![wednesday-addams-addams-family](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/7/6/f76b584c4361c8346dd18e154256fd48be3efbd6.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Oskar\_Milde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oskar_milde/32/396309_2.png) [@Oskar\_Milde](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oskar_Milde)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/208 "2024-03-30T15:19:33Z")
OK, so zero answers to the questions. Nice. All the best, have a good life. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/209 "2024-03-30T15:33:17Z")
> [@Oskar\_Milde](#): > > OK, so zero answers to the questions. Nice. Your question was dishonest to start with. To answer it in its dishonesty would be to encourage your troll. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/210 "2024-03-30T15:38:53Z")
> [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > PLEX is RMT. Straight up. > > What it did is move RMT from third party to CCP. > > Great for CCP but how does that change anything for the game? It fixed nothing. Genuinely curious: What’s the alternative? Remove PLEX, and then what? ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/211 "2024-03-30T15:48:12Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Genuinely curious: What’s the alternative? Remove PLEX, and then what? Careful with that. Applying reason instead of being sour as default means you’re a CCP simp. Thanks for the welcome back by the way, Epeen! ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/212 "2024-03-30T18:01:06Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Genuinely curious: What’s the alternative? Remove PLEX, and then what? I think is point was that, in any game where you can acquire power with ingame currency, you have RMT so P2W. In Eve, that RMT is managed by CCP. Does not mean this prevents P2W. ---
**Author:** ![Erebus\_TheChin\_Sundance](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/erebus_thechin_sundance/32/375165_2.png) [@Erebus\_TheChin\_Sundance](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Erebus_TheChin_Sundance)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/213 "2024-03-30T18:08:23Z")
Out of interest, I wonder how much it would cost to win this discussion. CCP could sell forum ammo right? ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/214 "2024-03-30T19:18:26Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > I think is point was that, in any game where you can acquire power with ingame currency, you have RMT so P2W. _If_ that is indeed the point – and I think E Peen can elaborate for himself, and I don’t think he would agree that was his point – then that point has such a broad definition to lose all useful practical meaning. It’s not even worth discussing, it is that meaningless: There exists more meaningful ground that can distinguish Eve Online versus “You can buy power in Stardew Valley with in-game currency, and anyone can pay a friend $10 to sit in a chair for an hour and farm the gold, therefore there exists RMT and therefore Stardew Valley is P2W”. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/215 "2024-03-30T19:31:40Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > You can buy power in Stardew Valley with in-game currency Can you ? Is there RMT in SV ? If there is none, your argument is stupid. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > It’s not even worth discussing, it is that meaningless Just because you are not interested in it, does not mean it does not exist. In most games I play, I pay for skins, not as a requirement but as a token of appreciation. Just because you don’t care about skins in Eve does not mean they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/216 "2024-03-30T20:13:00Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > I pay for skins, not as a requirement but as a token of appreciation. What? Skins are not power, which is what myself and past-you are discussing: > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > in any game where you can acquire power with ingame currency, you have RMT so P2W. Anyway. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > Can you ? > Is there RMT in SV ? Sure, offer a IRL friend $100 to play it for you on your account for an hour. Helldivers 2 has the same thing, but you can optionally buy it from strangers online instead of needing a breathing living friend. What is stupid is attempting to argue against this. This is exactly why I pointed out your original overly broad statement is meaningless. I don’t think you’re on a productive line of reasoning that will yield meaningful, insightful answers. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/217 "2024-03-30T20:20:07Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > What? Skins are not power, which is what myself and past-you are discussing: Skins are the L2 on the scale of Josh. And they are an example of things that exist even when you would not be interested in them. Which is my point. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Sure, offer a IRL friend $100 to play it for you on your account for an hour. That’s not RMT. You are not exchanging anything with your friend in the game. So yeah, your argument is stupid. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > This is exactly why I pointed out your original overly broad statement is meaningless. If you can’t exchange anything with other players there is no RMT : making a point about games where there can’t be RMT is stupid to start with. It’s completely stupid to expect the specific mention of “where there can be RMT” while we are in the case of RMT. If there can’t be RMT there is no problem to start with, since we are talking about RMT. You are completely stupid when dodging the topic with such a useless comment. If you can’t exchange outgame money for ingame currency in SV then your example does not make any sense ! Because then you can’t RMT ! ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/218 "2024-03-30T20:47:43Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You are not exchanging anything with your friend in the game. You can do that too! My apologies for not cherrypicking the specific example you wanted – I had figured since you went on about unrelated skins, I could charitably talk about something more in line with power-for-cash. You can pay Fiat to your friend or a stranger to give you gold and weapons in-game. Anyway, it makes your repeated use of the word “stupid” quite farcical, and your responses only reinforce my original point. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/219 "2024-03-30T21:10:25Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > My apologies for not cherrypicking the specific example you wanted It’s not about the example I wanted : it’s about not saying something stupid. When your example is not even about what we are talking about then it’s plain stupid. You were just trolling with completely stupid example that make absolutely no sense to start with. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > You can pay Fiat to your friend or a stranger to give you gold and weapons in-game. Then yes there is a way to pay for power ingame. And my point about the difference between what exists and what you are interested in still stands : just because you are not interested in it, does not mean it does not exists. Just like the skins are a form of P2W, the ability to purchase power with RMT is a form of P2W. There are also games where you are solo and can pay to go faster (cookie clicker). Those also are P2W. And it also makes your claim that my response reinforce your original point, stupid, since it was exactly on point but you chose to feign ignorance and use troll example that were completely out of touch. And your whole lot of troll arguments quite farcical as a way to dodge my points. Which were not even my points but actually me trying to explain things that you were, _a posteriori_, actually willingly feigning to not understand just to troll the topic. I don’t care if people usually classify RMT as a form of P2W. That stance still holds wether or not I adhere to it. Your argument that this would imply P2W in SV and therefore it is absurd, is just a troll. There can be P2W in SV. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 9:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032/220 "2024-03-30T21:19:14Z")
It’s not a troll argument. I genuinely wanted to know how E Peen thought it would play out with the removal of PLEX. Let’s recap: You engaged going down a tangent, and I made clear from the get-go how it is meaningless to me because it is too vague: yes you can claim everything is P2W and the problem is “I just don’t care about it”. You can say it 500 times. I’ve made clear I 1) _do_ care, and 2) that the distinction “everything is P2W” _is the meaningless original tangent_ from the get-go. I am arguing that the discussion needs more nuance. Calling “everything is P2W” helps absolutely nobody except those that treat pedanticism as a religion. You keep calling “let’s introduce more nuance” stupid. Please do keep replying, every time you call me a “troll” or “stupid” or whatever the next thing is, it only reinforces my argument more and makes clear to everyone who is wanting to have a more rational discussion capable of nuance OTHER than “everything is P2W, you just refuse to _see_ it” – maybe because I have an _honest_ viewpoint you deny me, purposefully tanking the dialog. That’s the real troll. Enjoy the block, Anderson. Good riddance. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-is-an-easy-7-10-on-josh-strife-hayes-pay2win-scale/444032.md?page=12)