# Eve isn't dying, but it isn't growing. My answer that devs won't recognize **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 29, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694 "2023-01-29T16:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/307 "2023-02-07T20:19:41Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > Doesn’t mean it’s an issue. Half the crying in this forum is from the people that want CCP to make it even easier to make the “lazy and stupid” more effortless to kill. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/308 "2023-02-07T20:23:11Z")
“more effortless to kill”, you’ll have to back that up with facts and statements because as far as I can see none of that is happening. No one is asking for ganking to be buffed, just not nerfed more. War dec wise you’d be right to a degree but that’s more an “undo what you did to allow for lazy and easy” than “buff it so we can be lazy”. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/309 "2023-02-07T20:42:24Z")
> [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > Half the crying in this forum is from the people that want CCP to make it even easier to make the “lazy and stupid” more effortless to kill. You’re a smart guy, surely you can discern the difference of “lazy and effortless”: - ISK generation, vs - ISK destruction If you actually want pirates in the game, piracy needs to cater to a wider skill band to accommodate newer players and players of lower skill because they need “lazy and effortless” targets to make up for their lack of hard skills (character skillsheet) and soft skills (person-in-chair grey matter). If there’s easy ISK generation (for newbs and veterans alike), there needs to be easy ISK destruction (also for newbs and veterans alike). I might not like the idea of a 10-man Hulk fleet hoovering up all the Veldspar in a Rookie 1.0 System much like many people don’t like the idea of an experienced ganker using a 10-man cat fleet on High Sec T1 industrialist Haulers, but for some reason if the former is OK because “ignoring the Hulk veteran, on the whole this gameplay increases newbie retention” then surely some of the 98% of newbies that quit without ever having been ganked would _also_ stay if High Sec PVP were re-facilitated and “on the whole this gameplay increases newbie retention”: they could begin to sink their teeth into High Sec Piracy without having to set up a structure for a WarDec (cost-prohibitive), Duel-Spam (lol), _nor ganking_. It doesn’t have to be an increase in ganking. For example: Bring back old-style suspect baiting. If you don’t want pirates in the game… well, you simply make the gameplay only viable the most fringe and veteran players, and choke the pipeline that would increase their number, hope they die off, and make their lives miserable in the game and outside the game until they quit. Which is what these comments contribute towards whether intentional or not. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/310 "2023-02-07T21:33:24Z")
> [@AureuSZ](#): > > To me, it looks like suicide ganking is a logical loophole in the game systems. It’s hard to imagine a real sci-fi civilization where this can happen and nothing gets done to solve it, like pursuing the culprits for money, prison or anything like this, yet, it exists in Eve. The lapse in your logic, as with most people who post the same kind of stuff you did, is who exactly needs to “do something to solve it.” You can do a _lot_ of things to solve it, but I’m venturing to guess that the solution you want is NPC-driven. > [@AureuSZ](#): > > Seeing that this is still a point of discussion must dissuade a lot or players like me to even attempt coming back. You could come back, and you could do things to solve the problem you’re alleging by taking on the role of a peacekeeping force. Why aren’t you doing that? > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > you’ll have to back that up with facts and statements I think you’ve been here long enough to know and understand that “facts and statements” isn’t the reason why he posts on this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 10:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/312 "2023-02-07T22:17:14Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I think you’ve been here long enough to know and understand that “facts and statements” isn’t the reason why he posts on this forum. So much rage from so few sentences. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![AureuSZ](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aureusz/32/467377_2.png) [@AureuSZ](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/AureuSZ)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 10:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/314 "2023-02-07T22:31:28Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > The lapse in your logic, as with most people who post the same kind of stuff you did, is who exactly needs to “do something to solve it.” You can do a _lot_ of things to solve it, but I’m venturing to guess that the solution you want is NPC-driven. Bear in mind i’m not informed of the changes that might have happened in 5 years, so there might be new counters to suicide ganking especially that didn’t exist back then. If so, i’m surprised that people would still complain. My issue with the suicide ganking gameplay was twofold : - bumping a ship for 30 minutes was somehow not considered aggression, which made it far too easy to set up several camps around different systems with only 1 player / gate. - There was no point in hunting pirates & their assets/pods, gankers never flew ships of value, and it never solved anything, they would just hop in another ship and repeat, the risk for them is null. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 10:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/315 "2023-02-07T22:37:53Z")
> [@AureuSZ](#): > > bumping a ship for 30 minutes was somehow not considered aggression, which made it far too easy to set up several camps around different systems with only 1 player / gate. This has been removed. > [@AureuSZ](#): > > There was no point in hunting pirates & their assets/pods, gankers never flew ships of value, and it never solved anything, they would just hop in another ship and repeat, no risk. This is not what “risk” is. In a system where the punishment is guaranteed and absolute, i.e. you shoot someone and CONCORD instantly blows you up in retaliation, there’s no “risk” because it’s a transactional system. If you want to create “risk” for gankers, the _first_ thing you have to do is ask for the transactional system to be removed in favor of one with an element of uncertainty attached to it. Otherwise, what you consider to be “risk” is actually nothing but _cost,_ and trying to create “balance” by increasing the cost is a meaningless approach because it results in a situation where the goal posts are constantly shifted. Anyway, that wasn’t what your initial argument was. You said that “nothing gets done to solve it,” when in reality _plenty_ of things can be done to solve it. Now you’re shifting your complaint to the lack of profit for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![AureuSZ](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aureusz/32/467377_2.png) [@AureuSZ](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/AureuSZ)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 11:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/316 "2023-02-07T23:02:40Z")
I need to see what’s changed, because back then, it was possible to use a bunch of t1 destroyers to just blow some valuable targets for free, with no counter. Your “peacekeeping force” argument refreshed my memory, that I had no way to counter them, or meaningfully fight back, at least back then. (hence my second point) ---
**Author:** ![Ha\_Kar\_Ma\_Gor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ha_kar_ma_gor/32/352552_2.png) [@Ha\_Kar\_Ma\_Gor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ha_Kar_Ma_Gor)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/317 "2023-02-07T23:13:45Z")
> [@AureuSZ](#): > > back then, it was possible to use a bunch of t1 destroyers to just blow some valuable targets for free it’s still possible now and some arses still do it. they even record and publish it to gloat over it later [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/7/2/972a1e64ce5fdcc66dac1370b40cd65d472c6080.jpeg "EVE Online: Gank - 13 Catalysts vs Mackinaw 2023.01.21") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DjDai-2Kpo) [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/d/e/7/de78f9ed02af899d1b4db75c7251c30dceb3bfa1.jpeg "EVE Online: Gank - 13 Catalysts vs Vexor Navy Issue 2023.01.21") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDBaPS2bJi0) ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 11:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/318 "2023-02-07T23:18:51Z")
> [@AureuSZ](#): > > Your “peacekeeping force” argument refreshed my memory, that I had no way to counter them, or meaningfully fight back, at least back then. (hence my second point) You _always_ had a way to counter them. As far as _meaningfully_ fighting back, like I said, this isn’t really possible in a transactional system. If you want to create genuine _risk_ for gankers, your first stop should be removing CONCORD, because risk for criminals can only exist when it’s possible to get away with a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Misanthra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/misanthra/32/391383_2.png) [@Misanthra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Misanthra)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/319 "2023-02-07T23:51:22Z")
Not really. Gankers have preferred high alpha in numbers for reasons beyond concorde. they get a small window to drop targets before active modules come online. and/or warp off. Before dessie spam this was cheaper BS’s back in the day. eve long ago had agent quality stats. and the highest quality level 4 agents per empire were few. where they were…so too were the faved rides like gank pests. it was’t the mission pocket you sweated things out. it was the say best quality Caldari Navy level agent station’s undock. that was the tricksy part lol. They didn’t alpha strike to beat out concorde only. If all went well…pop goes the CNR, the t3 before hardeners turned on. Dessie spam just came in favor once the first passes of insurance fixes took effect. gank pests insurance was not able to be gamed anymore. Dessies were looked at. ---
**Author:** ![AureuSZ](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aureusz/32/467377_2.png) [@AureuSZ](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/AureuSZ)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 12:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/320 "2023-02-08T00:12:49Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > genuine _risk_ for gankers, your first stop should be removing CONCORD let’s make all the universe null sec. why not. solves ganking fleets. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > You _always_ had a way to counter them There’s no way to counter a fleet with enough DPS. Anyway, I was just passing by, Eve was fun for me, lasted more or less 10 years on and off, got the itch to dip back in but this part of the game really left too much of a bad taste. Fly safe. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 1:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/321 "2023-02-08T01:07:58Z")
> [@AureuSZ](#): > > There’s no way to counter a fleet with enough DPS. The way I found at least was not to get caught in the 1st place. But I started as a pvp’er so when I switched to pve, the old habits paid off. ---
**Author:** ![Tzashrah\_Praankar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tzashrah_praankar/32/354043_2.png) [@Tzashrah\_Praankar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tzashrah_Praankar)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/322 "2023-02-08T01:12:20Z")
[![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/f/9/ef9d669ac03da9d7983ef1937bbeab6bbe1d9d4a.jpeg "EVE-ONLINE.. VERY FUNNY!!!! guy gets pissed") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9oAGnK9CU) 15 years ago but the same whinging. ---
**Author:** ![Misanthra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/misanthra/32/391383_2.png) [@Misanthra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Misanthra)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/323 "2023-02-08T01:24:41Z")
Yep. the ingame map can pull up ship lost/pods stats. 50 ships in the past hour is a sign. Not a good one. or zkillboard. people love posting kill mails. I love reading them. there was at least 2 dictors on mails in this system coming up recently. I can guess…the bubble camps are still up. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 1:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/324 "2023-02-08T01:37:41Z")
But, but, but that would require a little bit of effort? ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 1:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/325 "2023-02-08T01:41:32Z")
THAT was funny! I did my best to calm them down and pay them if they would learn! What more can I do? 😆 ---
**Author:** ![AureuSZ](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aureusz/32/467377_2.png) [@AureuSZ](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/AureuSZ)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/326 "2023-02-08T12:29:16Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > The way I found at least was not to get caught in the 1st place. But I started as a pvp’er so when I switched to pve, the old habits paid off. Whether it was a result of extreme bad luck on my part, an oversight, or anything else, I keep seeing these “get good” comments but I’m confident that it’s not really the point, as skill was not involved anywhere in what happened to me. I played a ton of pvp as well. I was using an alt to scout, had made lists of “known bumpers”, reported through anti gank channels, cops and alliances, and Using the starmap for recent destructions on my route etc… Still got caught, what was needed was just an unkown, uncorped cloacked machariel near a stargate, and an active fleet of catalysts anywhere in less than 20 jumps. The system might not be as unfair as it looked like for me as a result, and might be anecdotal, but considering the amount of threads that pop up around this issue, I’m quite confident that it’s not the case. It felt like playing against untouchable cheaters / griefers. It might be OK that the game is unfair, and Eve is often about that, but it looks to me like the contract is broken, when there is nothing to do to retaliate. your enemy is invincible, most of the time invisible, and has nothing to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/327 "2023-02-08T12:35:56Z")
> [@AureuSZ](#): > > It might be OK that the game is unfair, and Eve is often about that, but it looks to me like the contract is broken, when there is nothing to do to retaliate. your enemy is invincible, most of the time invisible, and has nothing to lose. You should go and gank, and in a few weeks come back and let us know if you still feel the same way (hint: you _won’t_). ---
**Author:** ![T\_Elliot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/t_elliot/32/453851_2.png) [@T\_Elliot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/T_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2023, 1:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694/328 "2023-02-08T13:58:57Z")
> [@AureuSZ](#): > > I need to see what’s changed, because back then, it was possible to use a bunch of t1 destroyers to just blow some valuable targets for free, with no counter. . . There have always been soft counters to being ganked. One needs to be aware of your surroundings and don’t be a profitable target, fit a tank, scout and fly with logi friends if you are hauling enough to be a rich target. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694.md?page=14) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-isnt-dying-but-it-isnt-growing-my-answer-that-devs-wont-recognize/393694.md?page=16)