# Eve Markets are collapsing and the 'Hands off Approach' isn't working (trade is dead and Jita killed it) **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** high-sec\ **Created:** [November 7, 2023, 11:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801 "2023-11-07T23:22:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/109 "2023-11-11T15:15:08Z")
Yet it proves that you are wrong : having several choices does not mean you are not forced. Your previous claim was extremely idiotic. This proposal is about forcing people to move away from Jita, using taxes as the leverage. ---
**Author:** ![Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anthony_fattony_amico/32/391106_2.png) [@Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anthony_FatTony_Amico)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/110 "2023-11-11T15:16:45Z")
Wow OP expanded the title lol. Yeesh ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/111 "2023-11-11T15:16:52Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > Yet it proves that you are wrong only thing that got proofen is that your has a wierd logic and your logic is idiotic having choices means per definition your not getting force btw …as you want to claim it as a choice … > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > “You can give me your wallet or I shoot you. You see I’m not forcing you, you have a choice.” its NOT a choice ! this is extortion ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/112 "2023-11-11T15:23:12Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > So you claim that with that change, people would still provide the same resources in Jita but would ALSO provide the same resources on many other hubs ? > > That’s delusional at best. No, I don’t claim that. I claim that even if _some_ people will leave Jita and/or some new Traders who decide to make another hub their main trading base, there will _still_ be more than enough volume in Jita to supply all demand there is. You try to argue hat you can’t fit your ship in Jita anymore because you won’t be able to purchase your hull, propmod and weapons there at the same time? Really? I call that just nonsense? Even a quite big tax difference would probably not redirect more than like 10% off Jita in total trade volume, at best. ---
**Author:** ![ISD\_Drew](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_drew/32/395254_2.png) [@ISD\_Drew](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Drew)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/113 "2023-11-11T15:37:08Z")
removed some off topic. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/114 "2023-11-11T15:41:24Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > You try to argue hat you can’t fit your ship in Jita anymore because you won’t be able to purchase your hull, propmod and weapons there at the same time? That’s the goal of your proposal : to force people out of Jita. The effect is that the market would be spread, so buyers also would have to spread. The market became centralized because it’s better for buyers and sellers alike. I’m not against the market being less centralized, I’m against forcing it. > [@Syzygium](#): > > Even a quite big tax difference would probably not redirect more than like 10% off Jita in total trade volume, at best. Where do those numbers come from ? ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/115 "2023-11-11T15:43:31Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > I’m against forcing it. and nobody is forcing … like it was said before a few times ! ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/116 "2023-11-11T16:49:24Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > That’s the goal of your proposal : to force people out of Jita. The effect is that the market would be spread, so buyers also would have to spread. > The market became centralized because it’s better for buyers and sellers alike. I’m not against the market being less centralized, I’m against forcing it. Nobody is forcing anyone. You can repeat that as often as you want. Offering tax discounts (or other incentives, but we simply don’t have such complex mechanicsms as in real life in EVE) are part of the global economy for centuries. It’s really not like someone pointing a gun on your head saying “put _one_ more order into Jita market and I will shoot you!”, thats a completely wrong comparison. If you can manage to sell the same amount of items elsewhere, you will just have saved some tax, nothing more. I repeat my question: Do you _really_ believe that you couldn’t go to Jita and buy a ship, a propmod and some weapons at the same time any more if we had the taxes in Jita a bit higher than the taxes in Amarr? Because it feels like you are being afraid of some complete market collapse over a bit of tax. It’s not like anyone tries to implement a 50% sales tax in Jita vs 0.2% Tax in Amarr. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > Where do those numbers come from ? 15 years of experience buying and selling stuff in different trade hubs. Jita will not break over a dynamic tax as long as the tax difference is balanced and reasonable. I have not seen a single argument so far that would make a Jita market collapse a likely scenario. And it really doesn’t matter if the amount of trade going away from Jita will be 6%, 9.8%, 12.3% or exactly 10%. It won’t be market breaking. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/117 "2023-11-11T17:00:10Z")
@Syzygium you cant discuss with him ! he always want to be the smarter one but cant understand if he´s wrong ! and then he will try to turn your words or start a new discussion … something offtopic and then he called you that youre offtopic ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/118 "2023-11-11T17:01:59Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > If you can manage to sell the same amount of items elsewhere, you will just have saved some tax, nothing more. So you have the choice between losing money and moving out. That’s called forcing people out. And just because the government does it, does not mean it’s not force. Economical power is still power. Taking actions in order to make people act a way they would not is power, when there is an associated threat, is to use force. You are correct though that increasing the global taxes and using tax reduction instead would not be felt as force even though it is practically the same. > [@Syzygium](#): > > Do you _really_ believe that you couldn’t go to Jita and buy a ship That is your proposal. It’s not even about belief. It’s what you are proposing. You want people to move out of Jita. The result of people moving out of Jita is that they will be less buyers and less sellers, so less trades in Jita, until it reaches an equilibrium. So yes your proposal implies that there will be more shortages. > [@Syzygium](#): > > 15 years of experience buying and selling stuff in different trade hubs. Jita will not break over a dynamic tax as long as the tax difference is balanced and reasonable. So you’re telling me you already experienced this situation ? Because it looked to me you were actually using random numbers that could fit your narrative. When CCP decided to make structure have less tax than stations, how many people moved from Jita to Perimeter ? Almost the whole plex traders moved. Because not moving was synonym of dying. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/119 "2023-11-11T17:06:26Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > So you have the choice between losing you need to pay taxes everywhere so you will always lose money oO and no, you still dont get forced to move to other tradehubs xD you still can sit in jita and pay the little bit mor etax but you have the better trade volume so you dont lose money at all … its mirrored because of the trade volume you have way more income then in other tradehubs ! ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/120 "2023-11-11T17:25:40Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > That’s called forcing people out. No it’s not. It is giving people options to sell more volume at a shorter time, but paying more tax. Or moving stuff to another hub, sell less or sell slower, but paying less tax. No force at all. Please, you don’t even need to respond any more. I have made my points, you disagree, thats fine. I am not convinced by anything you said so far and that probably won’t change any more. So for the sake of keeping the topic clean from some kind of ‘private arguing’, I will stop at this point. Count that as a ‘win’ if you like, it isn’t. I am still convinced a dynamic tax system would benefit the game and that point isn’t going to change soon. Arguments delivered above. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/121 "2023-11-11T17:33:53Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Count that as a ‘win’ if you like, it isn’t. I am still convinced a dynamic tax system would benefit the game and that point isn’t going to change soon. Arguments delivered above. You are still not explaining that. How would forcing people out of Jita improve the game ? What is the actual benefit ? Let’s say that they go for a third in Perimeter, for a third in Maurasi, and the last third in New Caldari. Nobody remains in Jita. What good does it do ? People are now given a choice to congregate in Jita or to seed other markets. What good thing would it add to force that choice ? ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/122 "2023-11-11T17:37:54Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You are still not explaining that. yes he did ! you need to lern reading … and understanding what you read ! > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > How would forcing people out of Jita improve the game ? only you are talking about forcing ppl out of jita ! nobody else did ! and only as you imagine you think that anybody did it, its still in your head … ! > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > What is the actual benefit ? he explained it before … > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > Let’s say that they go for a third in Perimeter, for a third in Maurasi, and the last third in New Caldari. What good does it do ? who´s talking abut these systems ? nobody … as i said before … its only in your head ! and your head isnt the best if you want to believe something ! ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/123 "2023-11-11T20:19:52Z")
oooo he flagged that with alts just because of a word stu\*\*d lol ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/124 "2023-11-11T20:23:49Z")
who is “he” ? and maybe its for a reason ? maybe your post was only ranting or offtpic or insult other ppl ? or many other things that can result in have flagged post ! ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/125 "2023-11-11T20:25:52Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > “You can give me your wallet or I shoot you. You see I’m not forcing you, you have a choice.” Look, we all know you’re going to shoot them anyway after handing over their wallet… 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/126 "2023-11-11T20:27:30Z")
its still not a choice ! and also its a stupid comparison ! he cant understand lot of things ppl are explaining ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/127 "2023-11-11T20:33:36Z")
you of course, the post was insulting you, rightfully so > [@Vuhdo\_Rin](#): > > but you arent a developer former you cant see as a developer ! it looks like you are a liar and its only your personal point of vied oO So one has to be an current or former EVE developer to be able to see it from their point of view? Strange logic. I am obviously not. I am an admin/developer/GM in another game where I host my own server and despite I am here as a player I am trying to see things from a global point of view. Now you will of course start arguing I am not. As I said, you are just a troll, no point of discussing with you. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/128 "2023-11-11T20:39:32Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > you of course, the post was insulting you, rightfully so and there is the reason of the flag 😉 but i dont flag posts ! i dont care if you insult me i can handle this ! > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > So one has to be an current or former EVE developer to be able to see it from their point of view? Strange logic. yes if you say this : > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > I am looking at the issue from a developer point of view, not my personal, what does benefit me more, point of view unlike you. you cant see it from a dev site because you arent a dev ! > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > I am obviously not. I am an admin/developer/GM in another game other games are not eve … other games hasnt game mechanics like eve … other game are … OTHER GAMES ! > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > I am here as a player I am trying to see things from a global point of view. you say others … quote this 2nd time : > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > I am looking at the issue from a developer point of view, not my personal, what does benefit me more, point of view unlike you. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > . As I said, you are just a troll, no point of discussing with you. you dont gave a base for a discussion oO which point should i discuss ? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801.md?page=7)