# Eve Markets are collapsing and the 'Hands off Approach' isn't working (trade is dead and Jita killed it) **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** high-sec\ **Created:** [November 7, 2023, 11:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801 "2023-11-07T23:22:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/152 "2023-11-12T12:26:35Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > small market hubs had lower taxes than Jita - a regional stimulation for selling in that region instead of Jita. doesnt make sense … tax reduction should be a bonus to the trader for massive trading ! not mirrored … > [@Wesfahrn](#): > > How is it crap? because it is … read your closed thread and you got so many answeres why it is ! ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/153 "2023-11-12T12:38:27Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > How are dynamic taxes forcing anyone to do anything? I still don’t get it. It was mentioned several times here, but I did not notice any explanation for it from those claiming it. Maximizing profits, tax avoidance is a sport, psychological factor of having to try to circumvent the tax because felt as unfair, whatever. Are you unfamiliar with taxes and how they affect people’s behavior ? A tax that comes out of the blue (as most do) is not an element of fun (except for taxes raised by corps/alliances of course, but at least they let it flow back into the organization). > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > What we want is to buff other tradehubs slightly. 0.5-1% or something like that. Maybe also lower relist tax idk. The prices in hek, dodi, wherever are not just .5-1% higher than in Jita. If you want to buff other trade hubs you’d have to 1) produce in the vicinity; 2) stock everything and offer the same convenience to the buyer; 3) set reasonable prices, comparable to Jita. Btw, have taxes ever resulted in lower prices ? Current market prices are the elephant in a room where people discuss setting up mom-and-pop shops. The current market prices are not a result of Jita being the major trade hub, they are the result of changes made to the game by ccp. And new taxes will not change one iota of the current prices - likely on the contrary, as they would push up the prices even further in Jita or any other place posing as a trade hub. Isogen choke, inflation, a new threat on import/export and now a suggestion for more taxes ? If not a bad suggestion then at least a very untimely one. We have other fish to fry. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/154 "2023-11-12T12:39:51Z")
> [@Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](#): > > These discussions should really be more focused. ‘The sky is falling down’ type threads never are. They are invariably based around a single player’s perception ( or misperception ) and invariably have some rambling OP to obscure the fact that the ‘problem’ is an invented one. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/155 "2023-11-12T12:42:53Z")
> [@Wesfahrn](#): > > taxes and hurdles for doing industry, its too complex and cumbersome. No. taxes are irrelevant to industry. A good industrialist put them in the price of the final product. They are actually simpler now. > [@Wesfahrn](#): > > logistics is a massive burden, Then delegate it to one of the so many other hauling groups > [@Wesfahrn](#): > > I suggest NPC hauling service rejected. This is against Eve fundamental principle. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > How are dynamic taxes forcing anyone to do anything? When you want to do something, but you can’t because that would be economical suicide, then you are forced to not do it by those who placed those taxes. When CCP made perimeter with a slightly lower tax, 99% of the plex traders moved to perimeter. They HAD TO. They were forced. Even though CCP may not have thought about it, the patch effectively forced plex traders out of Jita… even though mostly for BO. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Nobody wants to nerf Jita. Proposing to increase the prices in Jita is nerfing Jita. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Do you really believe that peoples will immediately leave Jita by hundreds and Jita will ceased to be? It’s not bout believe. It’s exactly what this proposal is about. This proposal is the SAME thing as “remove Jita”. And if it’s generalized to all systems it’s the SAME thing as “remove the market” People will use contracts, external app to manage market, will go in neighbour systems. Simply said this will make the game shittier. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > small market hubs had lower taxes than Jita - a regional stimulation for selling in that region instead of Jita. WHY ? Why is it better ? How does it improve the game ? FFS ! This is stupid ! > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > And for a race tech to be cheaper to manufacture there than in caldari space. This was the case at first, when racial mats made the building of racial items cheapers in that empire. Don’t know if it’s still the case but seems like JF made any regional bonus irrelevant. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Ideally also stimulate race meta modules from loot to be sold in that region. WTF ? race meta modules ? What is dropped in a region is alredy cheaper to sell in that region since there is no logistic to pay for. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > , but players will just craft it there and move and sell in Jita anyway for even bigger profit. It is too easy to do. How is that a problem ? > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > then someone else will buy it all and move it to Jita to resell himself. And they are right ! > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Likewise with 3, the buy orders are often higher than Jita, yet nobody is selling. Because the depth of BO is too low. And yes, people are using Jita BB … because the depth in Jita is better. more depth = more stability. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/156 "2023-11-12T12:43:42Z")
> [@Wesfahrn](#): > > How is it crap? The idea of an npc delivery service in New Eden is completely counter to the philosophy of the game. The live stream about Havoc re-stated it: even system security should not be a given. So, in a setting where ship movements (hauling stuff) are deliberately exposed by the developers to destruction, risk free movement of goods will never be a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/158 "2023-11-12T12:45:42Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > They HAD TO. They were forced. they had to ? wtf ? did ccp say them " if you you dont do it then you got banned " ? thats no choice … but if we stay at your example then they done it because for plex sales even 0,01% can make a big change to your marge ! ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/159 "2023-11-12T12:48:08Z")
> [@Wesfahrn](#): > > when you have to be logged in for hours anyway just to transport stuff around. The thing is : you don’t have to. Your whole proposal is based on a misrepresentation of the game. I can ask people to move my stuff for less than 5% of the cost of said stuff. > [@Wesfahrn](#): > > Last but not least mailing items does not have to be free and instant. And the service does not have to be available in null and low. Even better yet, it’s off topic and it does not even have to be discussed. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/161 "2023-11-12T12:50:47Z")
At least, we can agree you are not able to make an on-topic constructive argument. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/163 "2023-11-12T12:53:23Z")
That’s an argument from ignorance. You can be wrong while I don’t provide an explanation. If anything, I think on the opposite that the ease of logistic is what allows Jita to be the main market. I think making Amarr and Jita so far away was a good move since it would help Amarr market, then they added gates which made that change completely irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/164 "2023-11-12T12:53:53Z")
you only want to reopened your closed thread … and if you would understand why ppl say its a stupid idea then you would have STFU about this theme ! ---
**Author:** ![Wesfahrn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wesfahrn/32/392292_2.png) [@Wesfahrn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wesfahrn)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/165 "2023-11-12T12:58:30Z")
Jita’'s network effect is strong you should work with that and not against it, ergo an Item Mailing System. Aka Jita on Demand. Sadly the epic thread about the topic has been censored because the forum regulars just arent ready for such a good idea. And if you think people can not be ready for a good idea you can look up how Darwins idea was first received 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 1:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/166 "2023-11-12T13:00:06Z")
your proposal is off topic and bad, and you should feel bad. ---
**Author:** ![Wesfahrn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wesfahrn/32/392292_2.png) [@Wesfahrn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wesfahrn)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/168 "2023-11-12T13:11:36Z")
To summaraize - More ships, items and materials are added to the game every year - Few are removed - There seems to be a general decline in active players - Logistics is a big time sink - Industry is getting more complex These are just some contributing factors to the market acting the way it does. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/169 "2023-11-12T13:12:50Z")
> [@Wesfahrn](#): > > Logistics is a big time sink No bigger than any other activity. > [@Wesfahrn](#): > > Industry is getting more complex It’s not. > [@Wesfahrn](#): > > raw materials are added every year No ? What is raw items ? If it’s items that can’t be produced by manufacturing, then no. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/170 "2023-11-12T13:38:24Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Maximizing profits, tax avoidance is a sport, psychological factor of having to try to circumvent the tax because felt as unfair, whatever. Are you unfamiliar with taxes and how they affect people’s behavior ? > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > The prices in hek, dodi, wherever are not just .5-1% higher than in Jita. If you want to buff other trade hubs you’d have to… So you say that every fraction of percent will drive peoples to move out of Jita because of maximizing their profit. And at the same time you are saying that 0.5-1% is meaningless and won’t achieve anything? I don’t get it. You need to keep in mind that taxes themselves will not mean higher profit. I can already sell few specific items considerably more expensive at Dodixie and I know it will sell, however: - I need to fly there, because as rest of the EVE Universe I live and stage from Jita. And the time I spend to fly there and back is not really worth it. - I need to wait much longer for it to sell. I don’t mind waiting, however I have very few orders lately and I want to sell lots of different stuff. Is it really worth it then? - I don’t have perfect standing with Gallente, Minmatar and Amarr hence I am losing ISKs on taxes over Jita. = I need to sell considerably overpriced to turn profit This all needs to be taken into consideration. I can say that I won’t suddenly trade in Hek because of a 1% taxes cut. But just maybe it will motivate others to do it and it will be easier and hopefully cheaper to buy stuff in other tradehubs. Even if not cheaper, if there might be more stocks that will be improvement. And if nothing happens, fine by me, let those who are supplying those hubs have higher profit then! (No I a not one of them, again I am not suggesting things that helps me personally.) > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Btw, have taxes ever resulted in lower prices ? Assuming that the tax reduction will drive new traders to supply other tradehubs, then the competition between them and those who are supplying those hubs right now will drive the prices down guaranteed. Trade is done by hundreds of smaller solo players, so unlike wardecs there is no chance of a cartel forming up. Or you think that these new traders motivated by 1% lower tax will come there to sell it higher than current sell order? ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/171 "2023-11-12T14:04:01Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > And at the same time you are saying that 0.5-1% is meaningless and won’t achieve anything? That’s not what the quote is saying. He says that won’t buff the other market, not that it won’t do a thing. People will move to Perimeter, to Maurasi, to New Caldari … > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > You need to keep in mind that taxes themselves will not mean higher profit. taxes mean lower profit, with everything else remaining the same. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > . I can say that I won’t suddenly trade in Hek because of a 1% taxes cut You won’t be forced to ; some will. Depends on the market you are in. Markets with low margin but high volume are more sensitive to tax changes ; same for markets based on speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/172 "2023-11-12T14:35:19Z")
> [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > And at the same time you are saying that 0.5-1% is meaningless and won’t achieve anything? No, I’m saying that 0.5-1% is an underestimate of what the tax would be. _You_ mention 0.5-1% as a _reasonable_ “solution”. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > So you say that every fraction of percent will drive peoples to move out of Jita because of maximizing their profit. No, I did not mention “fractions of percent”. I don’t think “fractions” would do anything but increase prices by that “fraction”. The traders’ profits will stay the same, they make very sure of that. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > You need to keep in mind that taxes themselves will not mean higher profit. Indeed, they only lead to price increase, because traders, those people who do not add anything but buy up and sell for a higher price, will make quite certain that anyone but them will pay for the extra taxes. As they always do, both in the game and in the real world. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > This all needs to be taken into consideration. Preferable, and more reliable than excuses of why prices in other trade hubs are what they are, are the three components I listed as essential to build up a trade hub: 1) local production; 2) full catalogue; 3) comparable prices. You just elegantly demonstrated why prices would remain high. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Assuming that the tax reduction will drive new traders to supply other tradehubs, then the competition between them and those who are supplying those hubs right now will drive the prices down guaranteed. No. They are not the ones paying the extra tax, as they will compensate it in their asking price. They don’t care who pays the tax as long as they themselves don’t have to see their profits reduced. The convenience works both ways: traders have no reason to ship to other trade hubs that may or may not catch on. They don’t even do it today _without_ an extra or a lower tax. At most they’d love to get their hands on that tax, because every red figure in their wallet is something they think they should get, forgetting they already marked up their prices to their customers to compensate for it. Btw, you now mention a tax cut. Who thinks that a dynamic tax system would reduce taxes overall ?! ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/173 "2023-11-12T15:29:04Z")
> [@Cypherous](#): > > Nobody _wants_ to do it but people do _need_ to do it and there can be a huge profit in it, it is however extremely boring so i doubt that many people actually enjoy the task but do it anyway because its something they are skilled at Speak for yourself. It is fun. And profitable. What else do you want? > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Jita has enormous quantities of meta stuff. On other tradehubs, metas are lacking and indeed I had to resort into using tech1 stuff. Tech1 is way too expensive after the glorious industry rework. No longer makes sense to craft your own fit which is really sad. And yes meta is always better than tech1, but there are cases where you don’t really need it and where tech1 would be sufficient, if for a better price. But that is no longer true. Not really. These enormous quantities are there as long as they are more expensive than minerals you can get from them. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Are they? Idk maybe it is possible. But 99% of EVE is trading in Jita for a reason. These 20+ fleets of jump freighters are going to Jita for a reason. These hundreds of 1bil freighters are slowboat autopillotting all the way from Amarr to Jita for a reason. Not even 90%. About 80% of trade is in Jita. It is a lot indeed, but not as much as you state. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > selling elsewhere than Jita is just nonsense. Depends on the thing you sell. Some things have higher buy order prices in Hek… speaking of which, I bet it is time to up the buy prices once more - competition on these things is quite high here. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > When you get 1 piece of a meta projetile gun per day in Hek I don’t buy meta projectile guns, but I do know what I do with the ones I get from missions: cheap ones get melted, expensive get shipped to jita where buy order is often 50% higher. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > If traders in those minor trade hubs would set reasonable prices for their goods, they would see more volume shifting, and less people make the relatively short hops (amarr excluded) to Jita to get a fair price. Is what I have been doing since I started playing. And Hek trade has nearly doubled since then. Seems to be working. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > It may be that I am extremely allergic to taxes, living in a country where every “solution” involves at least one new tax system or new tax level without ever fixing the “problems” they were advertised to solve. But I really do not see any sort of an advantage for dynamic taxes trying to punish the existence of a trade hub a la Jita. Sounds like Belgium. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > This. And set reasonable prices With a reasonable sell price things sell quickly. That is my experience. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > Then do it ! place BO above them and resell at Jita ! You will make a benefit AND help the market. Exactly. We have to put the work in to get the outcome we desire. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > So what does J-space do for a **mass consumed** medium tier mineral ? J-space by itself does nothing. Also from all minerals jspace can only supply isogen, zydrine and megacyte in decent quantities. Trit is from hisec, nocxium is from melting loot and low sec. Morphite is null - as usual. Many ore anoms in jspace have giant rocks of gneiss. Some have humongous rocks of it - average frontier deposit has 2M m3 of gneiss in a single rock. You want to improve supply of isogen? Consider getting it from C1 holes. > [@Vokan\_Narkar](#): > > Likewise with 3, the buy orders are often higher than Jita, yet nobody is selling. Either nobody is doing the missions and anoms outside caldari (which seems to be the case actually can tell from ganker’s perspective) or the players are using Jita buyback program or they sell to their corporation who then JF it to Jita and dumps it there. Plenty people run missions in Ani constellation. Problem is that humans are creatures of habit. And one habit that was great for long time is “blitz”. But quite a few missions nowadays pay loads of isk in loot - if you bother doing clears and dropping mtus to scoop da loot. My last angel extravaganza had 50M isk in loot alone (with bonus room). I melted most of that loot. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Btw, have taxes ever resulted in lower prices ? No. Real life shows that lowering taxes doesn’t result in lower prices. It only fattens profits. > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > Then delegate it to one of the so many other hauling groups And pass the overhead to the clients. In my experience it is \<2% overhead. > [@Wesfahrn](#): > > But who is going to get the items, who is going to farm the LP? Each player only has so much time. So in general shortages are bound to happen Shortages mean profit opportunities. When you see shortage it is an opportunity. You can take it, or you can ignore it. It is up to you. Some people moving to farming new things means that some things they farmed (and thus no longer farm) will get more expensive. Thus profits of those who do them now will increase. Simple as that. > [@Wesfahrn](#): > > EVE markets are “collapsing” because of the logistics issue. Im glad you dont have it. Maybe you can share how to avoid it Simple : make courier contracts and pay couriers. Problem solved. Just pay them enough to actually be worth flying. Then it is them that have to use their time for logistics. Meanwhile you can do whatever else you wanted to do instead. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/174 "2023-11-12T15:37:34Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > No. They are not the ones paying the extra tax, as they will compensate it in their asking price. They don’t care who pays the tax as long as they themselves don’t have to see their profits reduced. The convenience works both ways: traders have no reason to ship to other trade hubs that may or may not catch on. They don’t even do it today _without_ an extra or a lower tax. At most they’d love to get their hands on that tax, because every red figure in their wallet is something they think they should get, forgetting they already marked up their prices to their customers to compensate for it. Wtf? Ok so, I was just buying Large ‘Vehemence’ Shockwave Charge in Hek for 1.004.000 ISK. So you want to tell me that if we lower the taxes in Hek, which will drive new traders to come here and stock market, that they bring these bombs and start to sell them for more than that ? ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801/175 "2023-11-12T15:45:16Z")
No he’s telling you that if the taxes increase then the final price increases. Let’s say that you go from 4.2% tax to 10% and you margin was 40% (so ( SO×(1-4.2/100) - productioncost ) /SO =0.4 ) Then if prices increase, you increase the SO until it reaches the same margin. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-markets-are-collapsing-and-the-hands-off-approach-isnt-working-trade-is-dead-and-jita-killed-it/426801.md?page=9)