# Eve online is way too unforgiving for new players **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [April 18, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514 "2021-04-18T21:03:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 12:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/21 "2021-04-23T12:16:31Z")
> [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > The words you quote do sometimes indicate what you believe they do, but sometimes they indicate the opposite. I understand what you are saying but I believe that in the end, regardless of original intent, they do and become exactly what I said. So you might say, “It was my fault I died” as a roundabout way of saying “I could have saved myself” but after a time you start to forget that the actual and original fault lies with the person who aggressed you. And moreoever, the one who aggressed is so often pushing that narrative of your guilt and their innocence. I also need to point out that fault and blame can be shared. For example, if I go around the forum claiming I am ungankable, and then someone ganks me, I would say I share blame in my own ganking for basically inciting it. But fact remains the ganker is still far from innocent. Ganking people for running their mouth is no better reason than most other reasons given for it. (And to be clear its not ganking I have trouble with as much as I have a problem with the lack of clarity surrounding the practice). ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 12:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/22 "2021-04-23T12:34:13Z")
> [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > This is the language of an abuser If we were talking about abuse but we aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/23 "2021-04-23T12:45:11Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > If we were talking about abuse but we aren’t. The LANGUAGE of the abuser can be used in all situations to facilitate future abuse. The use of correct and accurate language is relevant to any thread in which inaccurate language is being used, and DOUBLY so when it facilitates abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/24 "2021-04-23T13:00:50Z")
No it isn’t. **No one** says that. You keep trying to project your own issues into the game. If someone keeps repeating bad moves, telling them that they are the reason those bad moves are happening is not the ‘language of abuse’ and no abuse is being ‘facilitated’. ---
**Author:** ![Adunh\_Slavy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/adunh_slavy/32/265310_2.png) [@Adunh\_Slavy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Adunh_Slavy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/25 "2021-04-23T13:18:32Z")
Eve is not unforgiving, other players are unforgiving. If We Eve players want more newbs to enter and stay in the game, we should treat them better. Stop exploiting their newbie ignorance, stop the ganking, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/26 "2021-04-23T13:21:57Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > telling them that they are the reason those bad moves are happening is not the ‘language of abuse’ Yes it is the language of abuse. You are creating a negative that does not exist rather than simply promote a positive that does exist. There is zero need to try and make someone believe they bear fault for their getting attacked by another PC UNLESS they somehow actively provoked that attack or just flat out ignored an actual wardec. ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/27 "2021-04-23T13:24:27Z")
> [@Adunh\_Slavy](#): > > Eve is not unforgiving, other players are unforgiving. That’s a good point. But we cannot leave CCP out of this, and I think that when people say “EVE” they are meaning players and CCP…but yeah, its not EVE, its players and CCP (in how CCP allows players to act). ---
**Author:** ![Adunh\_Slavy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/adunh_slavy/32/265310_2.png) [@Adunh\_Slavy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Adunh_Slavy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/28 "2021-04-23T13:30:27Z")
> [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > That’s a good point. But we cannot leave CCP out of this, and I think that when people say “EVE” they are meaning players and CCP…but yeah, its not EVE, its players and CCP (in how CCP allows players to act). Yes, this is partly true. CCP has created an environment, the Eve sandbox, where we can choose to be good or bad. We choose how to act, and CCP, in its ‘enlightened benevolence’, gives us the free will to make those choices. That we have this choice is very important and is what makes Eve, Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/29 "2021-04-23T13:32:40Z")
> [@Adunh\_Slavy](#): > > That we have this choice is very important and is what makes Eve, Eve. Yeah. I certainly don’t want to kill that, but I do think new players need better and more constant heads up with regards to what is happening. Sorry I can’t give you likes right now…I ran out! ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/30 "2021-04-23T13:33:31Z")
> [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > There is zero need to try and make someone believe they bear fault for their getting attacked by another PC UNLESS they somehow actively provoked that attack or just flat out ignored an actual wardec. They flat out ignored the rules of the game and several in game warnings, including warnings before jumping into lowsec. That’s not to mention any signals outside of the game of what happens in eve. The fault certainly does fall with the OP. And saying so is honest feedback that he should take ownership of his actions. It’s not abuse to beat someone at chess when they willfully joined the chess competition. Nor is it the language of abuse to say ‘it’s your fault you lost that game’ when they decided to not learn the first thing about chess before entering a competition. Your insistence on seeing abuse in everything within a game is a reflection of your own personality issues than it is others. I’m serious. ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/31 "2021-04-23T13:38:14Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Your insistence on seeing abuse in everything within a game is a reflection of your own personality issues than it is others. I’m serious. Except I did not say there was automatic abuse here. I said the language of the abuser was being used by the victim and being offered to the victim. The problem here is blaming people who jump to low sec while not bothering to place any blame where it truly belongs…on the aggressor. To tell a victim that low sec is dangerous and they will get attacked if they go there and probably blown up as well…is a positive message. That way they can take getting blown up in stride. But if you tell them its “their own fault” well then you are just sellling a poisonous narrative even if you did not intend to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 1:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/32 "2021-04-23T13:43:14Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > It’s not abuse to beat someone at chess when they willfully joined the chess competition. Chess is not a good analogy, but I will roll with it: > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Nor is it the language of abuse to say ‘it’s your fault you lost that game’ when they decided to not learn the first thing about chess before entering a competition. Its a negative message that facilitates abuse and self-loathing. Why not tell them the other player won because the other player was better, and the other player was only better for practicing and studying? Instead of pointing backward over their shoulder and down the road of failure by telling them they screwed up, why not point up the road of success and future improvement? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/33 "2021-04-23T14:12:31Z")
> [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > Except I did not say there was automatic abuse here. I said the language of the abuser was being used by the victim and being offered to the victim. You did by referring to abuse. If that wasn’t your intention to compare such words to abuse you wouldn’t compare it to abuse. But you did because it **was** your intention. And this isn’t the first time you’ve tried to implant abuse as a subtext. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > The problem here is blaming people who jump to low sec while not bothering to place any blame where it truly belongs…on the aggressor. No it isn’t. You don’t blame a chess player for wanting to win a game. There wouldn’t be any ‘blame’ if the loser accepted they had ignored all the warnings and entered into a competition he was going to lose. But when the loser complains that the competition he entered for his loss, again despite all the warnings, the blame thoroughly lies with them. Not the aggressors and not the competition holders. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > To tell a victim that low sec is dangerous and they will get attacked if they go there and probably blown up as well…is a positive message. That way they can take getting blown up in stride. But if you tell them its “their own fault” well then you are just sellling a poisonous narrative even if you did not intend to do that. If you have to use such hyperbole it’s because you know you have to dramatise your narrative. Self responsibility is not ‘poisonous’. It’s agency. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > Its a negative message that facilitates abuse and self-loathing. It does **neither**. It facilitates responsibility. If taking ownership of your loss in a video game makes you hate yourself then perhaps you have a few things to take care of before you play games. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > Why not tell them the other player won because the other player was better, and the other player was only better for practicing and studying? > > Instead of pointing backward over their shoulder and down the road of failure by telling them they screwed up, why not point up the road of success and future improvement? Because the reality is more often that fights are lost more than they are won. And definitely in this case. The aggressor did nothing skillful, OP made multiple failures, like ignoring the nature of the game and warnings of the dangers of low sec. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > Why not tell them the other player won because the other player was better, This is particularly hilarious coming from you. I look forward to you telling gank victims the players that killed them are better players with more skill. ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 2:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/34 "2021-04-23T14:34:22Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > ou did by referring to abuse. If that wasn’t your intention to compare such words to abuse you wouldn’t compare it to abuse. But you did because it **was** your intention. Bah. You are just desperate to sound relevant or something. I compared nothing to nothing. I said it WAS. WAS and IS are not comparisons. I read no further than this. I am not going to entertain your putting of words in my mouth and ideas in my posts that are not there. ---
**Author:** ![Lexei](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lexei/32/277334_2.png) [@Lexei](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lexei)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/35 "2021-05-04T19:44:10Z")
Thanks for joining the conversation. Next time please do use some time to actually read what the thread is about and reply based on that. I was not complaining about dying in low sec with a freighter. I know that I took a risk there and lost my ship due to this. However that is not what im addressing here at all. It’s just 2-3 days ago I got ganked in high sec 0.7 or 0.6 with 20 catalysts. Luckily I was there and awake so I survived with my orca. However the same players have been doing the same thing several days in row in this area. This is nothing but being an abuser. Personally I don’t get the people who get their kick by ruining other peoples day when there isn’t even any challenge to it, but I get sometimes old players get bored and go ganking for fun. But when this action is something you do on a daily basis, it’s just sad. It’s basically just being an adult bully that is stuck on the high school scheme where bullies are considered to be cool. ---
**Author:** ![Lexei](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lexei/32/277334_2.png) [@Lexei](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lexei)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/36 "2021-05-04T19:49:05Z")
Hey thanks for joining the conversation, please do notice that I am not complaining about low security deaths so it would be really cool if you could actually stay in the subject. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Advenat\_Bedala](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/advenat_bedala/32/222076_2.png) [@Advenat\_Bedala](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Advenat_Bedala)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 8:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/37 "2021-05-04T20:24:25Z")
Please add links to your hisec killmails so we will discuss same topic ---
**Author:** ![Harknen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/harknen/32/388096_2.png) [@Harknen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Harknen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/38 "2021-05-04T20:46:34Z")
If the wolfpack is sniffing around your space and you don’t want to fight them off then it’s time to move. That’s all there is to it, don’t over think it. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Lord\_Trump](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dark_lord_trump/32/411482_2.png) [@Dark\_Lord\_Trump](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dark_Lord_Trump)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 2:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/39 "2021-05-05T02:05:42Z")
Define “noob.” Is a venture a new player? What about a barge? What about an exhumer? What about a freighter that’s carrying 10b and autopiloting through a 0.5 system? Do you have any evidence to support that these new players are struggling to do anything? ---
**Author:** ![Neo\_Bladedrifter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neo_bladedrifter/32/244232_2.png) [@Neo\_Bladedrifter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neo_Bladedrifter)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 2:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514/40 "2021-05-05T02:22:40Z")
> [@Lexei](#): > > It’s just 2-3 days ago I got ganked in high sec 0.7 or 0.6 with 20 catalysts. Luckily I was there and awake so I survived with my orca This is how things should be to survive ganking. > [@Lexei](#): > > the same players have been doing the same thing several days in row in this area. This is nothing but being an abuser. They claim those area as their territory, part of their roleplay. If other players don’t want them there, they should form a fleet and fight them head to head and claim the system. Counter Gankers are the ones lacking in HS and it’s not the Gankers fault. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-online-is-way-too-unforgiving-for-new-players/306514.md?page=3)