# Eve’s death spiral & 4 more unsubs **URL:** \ **Category:** Out Of Pod Experience\ **Created:** [November 14, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779 "2019-11-14T00:34:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Luminetta](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/luminetta/32/169417_2.png) [@Luminetta](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Luminetta)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/1 "2019-11-14T00:34:22Z")
Not here to complain about content, or lack thereof and not going to whine about who thinks what is fair and what isn’t. Just gonna state some facts. Small Corp run by 5 US military peeps, deployed rotational so 2 or three of us are gone any given time of the year. We got together to put up an engineering hub in some hisec backwaters and take turns with upkeep… which of course makes us targets, because reasons. So we know not to build it if we can’t defend it, but we DID believe that it would be able to defend itself to some degree, cause let’s be honest it makes no sense that a large structure equipped with weapons would lack the ability to defend itself without support from a half dozen cruisers… even a BS could do that. So we can’t do that…we can’t build it with a tank to outlive anything but a determined attack… so half-hearted attacks are legit threats… we all agree we can live with that too… the final straw was that we don’t even have the ability to self destruct the thing and waste the pvp’ers time…they can waste our time all they want, but we want to deny them the slightest gain and the rules are clearly in their favor, because rules. So in order to create content I play in a sandbox that only rewards negative behavior, anyone can play anyway they want, as long as the way they want is to disrupt what someone else wants… So 4 more players stopped their auto-renewal for their accounts, not because they cared about what CCP had to offer, or because of regular updates, or because of lack of new content, but completely because what a few people can do in a few months can be completely undone by fewer people in a few minutes, and there is nothing to be done about it. Heck even if we were able to deny the wrecking crew that last bit of satisfaction by tearing things down ourselves, at least there wouldn’t be that feeling of complete lack of control, the complete lack of fun… The forums all talk about self destruction kills content, but not really… all the players would have gotten all the same content, the difference would be denial of satisfaction, and the rules are clearly designed to satisfy a singular player type. I guess in conclusion, we’re saying that if 50 percent of your player base consists of people who thrive on the tears of others, you can expect a 50 percent player retention rate. So long CCP and thanks for all the fish ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/2 "2019-11-14T00:43:35Z")
> [@Luminetta](#): > > I guess in conclusion, we’re saying that if 50 percent of your player base consists of people who thrive on the tears of others, you can expect a 50 percent player retention rate. Some people don’t have the balls or thick skin necessary to cut it in eve. Looks like we know who you can your corp mates are. See you guys around, or not. ---
**Author:** ![Lily\_Inkura](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lily_inkura/32/174143_2.png) [@Lily\_Inkura](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lily_Inkura)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/4 "2019-11-14T01:00:17Z")
> [@Luminetta](#): > > we don’t even have the ability to self destruct the thing I agree. A lot if not most of the ganking I have observed is economically marginal. This in terms of amount of isk lost by attacking ships vs amount of _ **recoverable** _ loot. I have often looted downed mining ships in my own mining ships because I had the cargo space and know that attackers made a loss. What is undeniable though is the kill mail is always heavily in attackers favor in terms of isk _ **destroyed** _. So, yes, give me the chance to self-destruct and deny that kill mail. I would even be quite happy if self-destruct took out the pilot as well. Basically, any structure (or ship) cannot self-destruct without having a pilot on board. And any pilot on-board cannot survive in a pod. I still take an economic loss and attacker still gets the loot/ potential strategic advantage. But, it just changes that currently one-sided dynamic. ---
**Author:** ![zazzmatazz\_Xu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zazzmatazz_xu/32/451037_2.png) [@zazzmatazz\_Xu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zazzmatazz_Xu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/5 "2019-11-14T01:36:16Z")
I understand his stance, it does suck that many who just want to peacefully exist and enjoy the environment without being molested by those that want to just aggress others for a jolly jolly because they cannot find any entertainment elsewhere and are just bored but can’t find it in themselves to just move on. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/6 "2019-11-14T01:59:41Z")
Can I have your stuff? :dealwithitparrot: ---
**Author:** ![Derath\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/derath_ellecon/32/289725_2.png) [@Derath\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Derath_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/7 "2019-11-14T02:00:15Z")
I dunno why this tidbit caught my eye. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/5/4/546321088470483cf32787c67d47b61614a4d5ce.png) ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/8 "2019-11-14T02:01:56Z")
The community already welcomed him and his fellows EVEstyle when their structure was blown up. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/9 "2019-11-14T02:10:19Z")
I understand being busy, and unable to commit full time to defending a structure, but why not team up with someone else who can be there to defend it on a more permanent basis? Why do you need one to play at all? I like owning my own structures, but most often it is more cost and labor efficient to borrow someone else’s, or to fall back to an NPC station. I have structures, but I have a contingency plan in place for when those all die, as I know they may. I can still play without them, and I feel pretty sure you and your friends could, too. ---
**Author:** ![Anson\_Muellin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anson_muellin/32/169480_2.png) [@Anson\_Muellin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anson_Muellin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/10 "2019-11-14T02:10:22Z")
> [@Derath\_Ellecon](#): > > I dunno why this tidbit caught my eye. > > ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/5/4/546321088470483cf32787c67d47b61614a4d5ce.png) Yeah, not much for the forums… the most vocal forum posters are generally not the most common opinion of the game. I really like the game, have liked it for years even with the on-an-off schedule my real life enforces… but in a game that advertises “play your way” they should really offer “your way” in a way I like… maybe a PvP optional way where I can own a house and not worry about that flagging me for involuntary war. Heck even if they made war equal… like corps 20 times your size can’t just up and decide you shouldn’t play any more… The PvP oriented corp has 144 active wars right now (ONE HUNDRED FORTY-FOUR)… this obviously lets them fight whoever they want, wherever they want with all the advantages and while maintaining a flawless security status, while non of those 144 have any choice any more. So play any way you want, as long as the way you want isn’t what you want and it provides content for people who want you to play with them. I did note that there were 5 players and 4 unsubs…trying to figure out what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Lily\_Inkura](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lily_inkura/32/174143_2.png) [@Lily\_Inkura](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lily_Inkura)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/11 "2019-11-14T02:12:30Z")
> [@Luminetta](#): > > We … put up an engineering hub in some hisec backwaters … which of course makes us targets Been there. Still doing that. Come to my backwater. I’m solo pilot corp but there is no need to actually join. No problem about being on rotation either as I won’t talk to you anyway. (Did I say I play solo?) Hit me up in game with five character names and I’ll give you access to raitaru. 0% fees. Use it. Or don’t. Your call. ---
**Author:** ![Anson\_Muellin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anson_muellin/32/169480_2.png) [@Anson\_Muellin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anson_Muellin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/13 "2019-11-14T02:29:41Z")
But why? I mean there is already a lawless waste… hisec isn’t supposed to be that right?? I mean why have two different lawless wastes? Or 4 different I guess… Heck even Lowsec is less lawless than hisec because at least there citadel defense can be with bombs and point defense… ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/14 "2019-11-14T02:31:36Z")
> [@Anson\_Muellin](#): > > hisec isn’t supposed to be that right?? Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lily\_Inkura](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lily_inkura/32/174143_2.png) [@Lily\_Inkura](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lily_Inkura)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/15 "2019-11-14T02:37:56Z")
> [@Anson\_Muellin](#): > > there is already a lawless waste… hisec isn’t supposed to be that right?? It’s not lawless. You are guaranteed to die if you gank another player. That’s the law. You can however attack a player or structure without legal ramifications if you first declare formal war. That’s also the law. > [@Anson\_Muellin](#): > > maybe a PvP optional way where I can own a house and not worry about that flagging me for involuntary war That was the whole premise behind EvE and that differentiated it from the competition when it started - PVP is _ **not** _ optional. Ever. But that is also why I support self-destruct. I should absolutely be able to enact a scorched earth policy in response to being attacked. My choice to defend passively and it is illogical in a PVP game not to have that option. ---
**Author:** ![Complex\_Math](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/complex_math/32/378387_2.png) [@Complex\_Math](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Complex_Math)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/16 "2019-11-14T02:50:46Z")
> [@Lily\_Inkura](#): > > also why I support self-destruct Loot drops are one of the major incentives to PvP (aka, encourage destruction)- which is important in keeping the economy going. If everyone had the ability to self destruct whenever they were about to lose, that would completely remove the PvP incentive. Now, if you’re suggesting that the self destruct mechanic would still drop loot- then I totally support your proposal. If I know I’m going to lose, I don’t want to watch my stuff get attacked for the next two hours, I’d rather just admit defeat and let the attacker take their spoils. ---
**Author:** ![Luminetta](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/luminetta/32/169417_2.png) [@Luminetta](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Luminetta)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/17 "2019-11-14T02:52:25Z")
> [@Lily\_Inkura](#): > > That was the whole premise behind EvE and that differentiated it from the competition when it started - PVP is _ **not** _ optional. Ever. But that is also why I support self-destruct. I should absolutely be able to enact a scorched earth policy in response to being attacked. My choice to defend passively and it is illogical in a PVP game not to have that option. The problem with PvP games is the time required… The more PvP oriented the bigger rewards for more time spent in game… rewards that can all be used against the other players, where as PvE games also offer more rewards for time spent, but limits the use against others, so people who can play 24/7 have a huge advantage vs the environment, but smaller advantages towards RL busy players. Anyone know a PvE based space exploration game? ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/18 "2019-11-14T02:54:09Z")
> [@Luminetta](#): > > The more PvP oriented the bigger rewards for more time spent in game… Mind tell us what these bigger rewards are for PvP in EVE Online? ---
**Author:** ![Luminetta](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/luminetta/32/169417_2.png) [@Luminetta](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Luminetta)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/19 "2019-11-14T02:56:11Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Mind tell us what these bigger rewards are for PvP in EVE Online? More contacts, more ships, more expensive fits, more expendable resources, more time to waste making other peoples time less effective… I could go on ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/20 "2019-11-14T02:56:42Z")
How does PvP reward you with any of these? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Luminetta](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/luminetta/32/169417_2.png) [@Luminetta](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Luminetta)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/21 "2019-11-14T02:58:07Z")
Trolling? ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/22 "2019-11-14T03:04:18Z")
> [@Luminetta](#): > > Trolling? I’ve been PvP-ing for the last 5 years of my time playing this game. Never had I ever gotten more ships, more expensive fits, more resources, nor more time to play the game from my PvP. Maybe I get lucky and the person who I killed would have a shiny faction module. But that’s it. I never got a bigger ship or more expensive fits from it. Am I supposed to be getting more ships? Where do I go to cash in my PvP for more ships? 🤔 [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779.md?page=2)