# Eve’s death spiral & 4 more unsubs **URL:** \ **Category:** Out Of Pod Experience\ **Created:** [November 14, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779 "2019-11-14T00:34:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Anson\_Muellin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anson_muellin/32/169480_2.png) [@Anson\_Muellin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anson_Muellin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/164 "2019-11-15T04:24:33Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > In my ALPHA suggestion, a station would have the option of hot swapping modules to take on different sized of ships They can already do this. A single launcher can fit light, heavy, and cruise missiles. That after a damage coefficient do insignificant dps. > [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > So in the end, the station will still go down vs most enemies but it would keep them on their toes more as they could easily get caught out by a savy defender. They can’t do this, not even close, not even remotely close. If the structure has endless fighters it might pose a risk to a moderately fit cruiser, but not a significant risk. Most bash fleets are only fleets to speed up destruction, not because of any fear of the structure itself. ---
**Author:** ![Lily\_Inkura](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lily_inkura/32/174143_2.png) [@Lily\_Inkura](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lily_Inkura)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/165 "2019-11-15T04:31:30Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > because at some point it’s going to come up that, actually, it’s pretty illogical that 5 clowns with pointy sticks holed up in a space shanty can even hold out as long as they can right now against an armada of unlimited size and firepower Oh, I disagree. (At least, partly.) That is _ **exactly** _ what I want addressed. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > it’s all a function of pure space-magic mechanics like “damage caps” and “reinforcement timers” This is the bit I can’t disagree with. I just want the balance to be changed tho’. Just a little. Even if it is just to give me the illusion/ fantasy of feeling able to “resist”. And if @Runa_Yamaguchi thinks that’s also a function of my being a “sore loser”, I’m kind of happy with that too. I am after all, as a resident of Carebear Central, quite happy with embracing my internal sooky sooky la la. ---
**Author:** ![Anson\_Muellin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anson_muellin/32/169480_2.png) [@Anson\_Muellin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anson_Muellin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/166 "2019-11-15T04:39:46Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > None of that’s logical, it’s all a function of pure space-magic mechanics like “damage caps” and “reinforcement timers”. As a structure owner I’d sacrifice a timer if I was able to fit a tank. Let’s treat a structure like we would a cap or supercap… it’s allowed in hisec because it can’t move, other than that it’s the same. Allow for a single 24 hour invuln counter if it’s equipped and fueled and that might increase aggression against them… I mean who wants to invest a week to take down a structure that is really just 3 of the most boring 25 minute fights you’ll see over the course of a week. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/167 "2019-11-15T04:41:27Z")
> [@Anson\_Muellin](#): > > They can already do this. A single launcher can fit light, heavy, and cruise missiles. That after a damage coefficient do insignificant dps. True but I mean WAY more specialized…Think of the vast array of weapons ships have at their disposal…well how about a 10th of that for stations but for all “vs” scenarios. > [@Anson\_Muellin](#): > > They can’t do this, not even close, not even remotely close. But this is what I agree might need to change. Have the ability that if fit properly, it can destroy ships in 2-3 shots (over a minute or two) to force a retreat for that one ship or a loss if they are asleep. With the DPS cap, more attackers does not decrease the time to kill but just guarantees the time of death… ---
**Author:** ![Lily\_Inkura](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lily_inkura/32/174143_2.png) [@Lily\_Inkura](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lily_Inkura)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/168 "2019-11-15T04:43:40Z")
> [@Anson\_Muellin](#): > > As a structure owner I’d sacrifice a timer if I was able to fit a tank. Me too. I have no particular opinion regarding your numbers - how many timers, how long for - but happy with the principle. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/169 "2019-11-15T04:44:29Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > True but I mean WAY more specialized…Think of the vast array of weapons ships have at their disposal…well how about a 10th of that for stations but for all “vs” scenarios. Well…Turrets don’t really work for structures because they’re kind of incompatible with tracking. So, you can have as many flavors of weaponry as you want, as long as the flavors are “missile” or “fighter” or “superweapon”, pretty much. Guess that guided bomb launcher kills drones pretty well, too. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/170 "2019-11-15T04:48:20Z")
> [@Lily\_Inkura](#): > > And if @Runa_Yamaguchi thinks that’s also a function of my being a “sore loser”, I’m kind of happy with that too. I am after all, as a resident of Carebear Central, quite happy with embracing my internal sooky sooky la la. That was not a jab at you at all. I appreciate this conversation and its civility so…Heck I’m mostly a HS carebear too in many ways or at the very least just a LS scummy vulture. We’re cool 😻 ---
**Author:** ![Anson\_Muellin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anson_muellin/32/169480_2.png) [@Anson\_Muellin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anson_Muellin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/171 "2019-11-15T04:49:23Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > Well…Turrets don’t really work for structures because they’re kind of incompatible with tracking Don’t really need to orbit a structure… never seen it… like orbiting a poco…sure you could do it, but isn’t at all necessary. If there isn’t a defense fleet there isn’t combat, just shooting holes in walls until there is equal amounts of space on both the inside and outside ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/172 "2019-11-15T04:51:47Z")
Oh I’m totally daydreaming here but ya…why not have turrets in this “New” model? I think it’s fair to say that the current state of stations AND wardecs need one hell of a do-over. At that time, reworking how stations are armed might be a wise idea… But god-dammit no big red “BYE CRUEL WORLD” button… ---
**Author:** ![Lily\_Inkura](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lily_inkura/32/174143_2.png) [@Lily\_Inkura](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lily_Inkura)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/173 "2019-11-15T04:52:12Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > you’re no muppet obviously Take that back sir! Them’s fighting words. Don’t _ **DISS** _ the Muppets. [Now _ **that’s** _ a jab.] ---
**Author:** ![Anson\_Muellin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anson_muellin/32/169480_2.png) [@Anson\_Muellin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anson_Muellin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/174 "2019-11-15T04:55:52Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > But god-dammit no big red “BYE CRUEL WORLD” button… Also while we’re asking for stuff, I would like one “BUY CRUEL WORLD” button. Kthanxbye ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/175 "2019-11-15T04:55:55Z")
Lily’s bridge crew ![pis](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/1/0/101228683d3869a8f81e2a284a71eaeaa7c25e1c.png) ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/176 "2019-11-15T04:56:37Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > Oh I’m totally daydreaming here but ya…why not have turrets in this “New” model? I mean the best you could likely do would be something like fighters, which have a mixed mechanics (they have optimal, falloff, explosion radius and velocity for application, iirc). The actual “Tracking” part is problematic on a model the size of something like a keepstar or, hell, even an Astra. IIRC, the tracking math (the angular velocity component) takes place from the center of the model (partly why HAW titans were so oppressive in the past). So either it’s going to have a completely unusable tracking score (why bother) or on a fortizar or keepstar you’re only ever going to be “under” its guns in… point defense range. Because they’re huge, and even at “0” meters from the structure you’re still enormously far away from a tracking perspective. It came up in some of the initial citadel design threads. There’s a reason they don’t have turrets. That’s not to say it’s an intractable problem, but it’s probably a fairly large one when you could, instead, use a weapons platform that doesn’t have that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Anson\_Muellin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anson_muellin/32/169480_2.png) [@Anson\_Muellin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anson_Muellin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/177 "2019-11-15T04:59:00Z")
Huh learn something new everyday… thanks for that! ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 5:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/178 "2019-11-15T05:20:32Z")
[![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/d/6/d6130939e6615c41f789e0727937d40af5c65bfb.jpeg "made at imgflip.com")](https://imgflip.com/i/3gf54u) ---
**Author:** ![Lily\_Inkura](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lily_inkura/32/174143_2.png) [@Lily\_Inkura](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lily_Inkura)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 5:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/179 "2019-11-15T05:34:48Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > you could, instead, use a weapons platform that doesn’t have that issue. That could be fun. I was thinking orbital defense satellites. But going back to deployed gun or missile platforms (as used to exist?), similar to what are now on NPC stations, could be really enjoyable. Perhaps the structure owner could use remote shield boosters on platforms, in return for an extra fuel penalty? Maybe you could logi platforms, or even logi the structure (can you do that now??). Once platforms are down, structure becomes undefended. You could though re-deploy platforms, albeit with typical 15 minute anchor. Meantime, reinforcement timer is ticking. The idea is just to create more tension between, can the attackers get the next reinforcement vs can the defenders prevent it? Yes, this is all fantasy, and in specific context of my being a one person corp … but … maybe, just maybe … I’d be up for a fight like that. So, yes, on one hand less attacks on structures might occur, but on other hand, more active defenses by structures might happen in response. ---
**Author:** ![Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/manweru_cemenotar/32/230368_2.png) [@Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Manweru_Cemenotar)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 6:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/180 "2019-11-15T06:13:55Z")
> [@Kaivarian\_Coste](#): > > How often are small corp citadels attacked in high sec? I’d say that depends on where aforementioned small corp will decide to anchor said citadel - if they do in in system where alot of traffic is happening on daily basis, it will get destroyed sooner than later. ---
**Author:** ![Lugburz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugburz/32/486230_2.png) [@Lugburz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugburz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 6:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/181 "2019-11-15T06:26:50Z")
Id says its days are numbered especially when you consider the news about the decline of mmo’s, I somehow feel that people dont want to play games with 50+ other people in the same group - if my personal analysis is correct it would seem to be that people by and large actually prefer smaller groups for game play… and ccp seem intent on pushing the other way to that. ---
**Author:** ![Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mevatla_vekraspek/32/377519_2.png) [@Mevatla\_Vekraspek](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mevatla_Vekraspek)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 6:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/182 "2019-11-15T06:50:59Z")
> [@Anson\_Muellin](#): > > Right, no school. The power is in numbers, get some friends to defend you stuff or pay people or whatever but don’t complain that you can’t defend your country without a fully prepared and equipped army. Common sense… ---
**Author:** ![Theron\_Larkis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/theron_larkis/32/170573_2.png) [@Theron\_Larkis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Theron_Larkis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779/183 "2019-11-15T07:17:17Z")
> [@Kaivarian\_Coste](#): > > How often are small corp citadels attacked in high sec? Really not that often unless it’s an obvious, juicy or easy target. Whichever way you look at it attacking citadels is a pain in the ass especially without caps. But if you have a 5 man corp and have SEVEN citadels all in busy and obvious systems and all are crap fit then yeah, you become a target. Which is what started this whole discussion: a handful of semi-inactive clowns building SEVEN citadels along a busy highway with zero actual understanding, who then go whine on the forums about how it all went up in flames. Citadels do not need more defenses, you just need to be smarter about it and if you’re going to build your own sandcastle for whatever reason you had better have the knowledge and manpower to defend it. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779.md?page=8) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-s-death-spiral-4-more-unsubs/200779.md?page=10)