# EVE will always be a nichè Game **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 8, 2021, 8:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186 "2021-03-08T08:43:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 11:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/222 "2021-03-21T11:42:09Z")
> [@Jayce\_Fitzpatrick](#): > > I’m literally crying physical tears from distress over this obnoxious discussion. > > Please ban the people responsible, so I can feel happy again because I can’t handle my own emotions. @Jayce_Fitzpatrick i think you are needing a hug come here big fellow 🤗 ---
**Author:** ![Jayce\_Fitzpatrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jayce_fitzpatrick/32/383289_2.png) [@Jayce\_Fitzpatrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jayce_Fitzpatrick)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 11:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/223 "2021-03-21T11:42:35Z")
🤗 ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/224 "2021-03-21T12:22:59Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > So, Under the "Freudian concept of “_sublimation_ since you want to talk psychology the base principle is the substance stays the same. Yes, the base substance remains the same. For example, the aggression remains, but it’s “_sublimated_” into, say, a career in boxing or the military, or blowing up spaceships in a video game. > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > So what your saying is that people are inheritably evil or good Hm, well when you talk about “good” and “evil”, now you’re getting away from psychology and more into philosophy. Clinically, I think in terms of “adaptive” and “maladaptive”, “healthy” or “unhealthy” (all of which exist on a continuum without clear borders). If you want to talk philosophically though, I’m inclined to agree with Solzhenitsyn: > “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > CCP seems to think that everyone is evil and scoring high on the d-triad, which is very much no the case. That would depend on your perspective. In the Christian tradition, humans exist in a fallen state, and we are all tainted with Adam’s original sin; we are pluripotent, capable of great acts of altruism and kindness or great acts of evil and destruction. From a Buddhist perspective (and I do believe Siddhartha was the first psychologist), there is no “good” and “evil” as all is Maya or _illusion_. > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > people (like yourself) who are here to exploit and progress their highly inclined dark-personal I’d be the first to admit that I’ve indulged in antisocial tendencies in EVE Online. > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > Or we can defer to the point that you just lied about it and continue with truth. Lied about what? > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > little stunts like “character creation events” (especially for steam) that i use 6 months later to make statements to both the BoD and player base that “x amount of new players game to the game this year” while at the same time hiding the fact that these new creations were alts due to an event? Do you have some sources/links to corroborate these statements? > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > you, being one of the individuals invested and scoring high on dark-personality traits I actually don’t score particularly high on those traits. While I do score below the mean for trait Agreeableness, all the Agreeableness I have comes from the facets _modesty_, _straightforwardness_, and _altruism_ which stand in contradistinction to _egotism_, _Machiavellianism_, and _psychopathy_. You’re painting this picture of me as some evil sociopathic spymaster. In reality, most of the “bad” things I’ve done in EVE Online are best compared to small time thuggery and petty opportunism. > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > iv played this game since its inception Post on your main. > [@Quentin\_Schaefer](#): > > I always thought PlanetSide was more of a niche game than Eve was. PlanetSide 2 was pretty dope until they added massive amounts of cheese. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/225 "2021-03-21T13:14:43Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Are you illiterate?\* What part of “negligible risk that exists in highsec” do you not understand? PvP is already a minimal threat to smart players in highsec. So by your own argument rewards must be nerfed without any adjustments to PvP, and if PvP is removed entirely than all income must be removed entirely as well. > > \*You are, obviously. ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/a/b/8/ab8b64da1b0d743f420fca3baa29f9ffeaf9da18.png) Minimal yet they are higher then any of the other regions except delve because of the one in a half decade war against long standing enemies. Seems like you gut caught in another lie with your peddling of the dark triad. I bet if we dig deeper into this we will find that the 3-4 trillion lost in the major regions for the major races is due to people like code. It seems your lying never ends. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/226 "2021-03-21T13:24:11Z")
> [@Norman\_Seversky](#): > > The playerbase who joined the game because of how hard and unique it was, the playerbase whose time and effort contributed to the game was made worthless You have to prove this is in fact the case. I believe the reason why eve is as successful as it is, is simply because the other options are not good options. Take eve vs Elite for example. the reason why elite is not a major competitor for eve is because finding people is extremely difficult. Everything in eve takes place around a an object and when it does not it takes place around a point (we refer to as safes). In elite you effectively have so much space there things are not taking place around objects and because of this the game is just impossible to play as an mmo. I do think that the complex form of game play is part of it. As designers we have alienated these players to much over the years, but i dont find that changing high sec from having suicide ganking to be against them and it is a happy medium. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/227 "2021-03-21T13:26:45Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > CONCORD to deter attacks A prime example of the intellectual dishonesty in a discussion. officially the stance is “concord does not deter, its a retribution mechanic”. When you pat 1m for a 500m kill, there is no mechanic that is retribution based that will ever “deter” attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/228 "2021-03-21T13:29:52Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > No, the suggestion is that being literally “to the verge of tears” over losing a ship in a PvP video game is a problem with you, not with the person who blew up your ship. There is a causal chain of events here but the fault is 100% with the “victim”. I’m inclined to agree. If a child is crying because their team lost the soccer game, that’s not a problem with soccer or a problem with the winning team, that’s a problem with the losing team and _that particular child_. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/229 "2021-03-21T13:31:50Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > A prime example of the intellectual dishonesty in a discussion. officially the stance is “concord does not deter, its a retribution mechanic”. When you pat 1m for a 500m kill, there is no mechanic that is retribution based that will ever “deter” attacks. Punishment is a form of deterrence. ---
**Author:** ![Mu\_ad\_Diib](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mu_ad_diib/32/389247_2.png) [@Mu\_ad\_Diib](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mu_ad_Diib)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/230 "2021-03-21T13:38:01Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > There are no victims because all involved parties have consented to the experience. > > If you think that anyone who willingly downloads and plays a video game can be victimized by any part of the game experience that is within the confines of the game’s rules, you’re sick in the head, and need professional help. I think that the way that EVE Online is played by different people is so varied and individual, and the sheer scope of the game is so vast and complex that it’d be hard for anyone, from the outset, to be in a position to anticipate exactly what they were signing up to in a holistic sense. In addition to this, as I’m sure you are aware, and as I stated _clearly_ earlier, the motivations of why people play in a complex myriad of ways is intrinsically linked to their own personal psychology and this in turn is as complex as the person themselves. Given all of this, I think it’s quite possible for some people to exploit this is a [sadistic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer) way and equally possible for people _not_ to be wholly aware one this implications of something until it hits them. Having said all this, the comment I was making about victim blaming was _specifically_ about the comment _you_ made where _you_ said. _" the fault lies with you, and not with that other player"_. Whether you like it or not, that is victim blaming. As far as the personal insult about me being “_sick in the head_” goes, well it doesn’t really deserve an articulate response because if you need to insult me to win your argument then you have already lost it. 🐁 ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/231 "2021-03-21T13:45:47Z")
> [@Mu\_ad\_Diib](#): > > Having said all this, the comment I was making about victim blaming was _specifically_ about the comment _you_ made where _you_ said. _" the fault lies with you, and not with that other player"_. Whether you like it or not, that is victim blaming. “Blaming the victim” occurs when the victim of a _crime_ or _wrongful act_ is blamed for it. However, sometimes the victim _does_ share in the blame, or at least _plays a role_ in the event. We’re playing a video game, though. Suicide ganking and blowing up ships in EVE Online is not a against the rules nor a wrongful act. So it’s entirely appropriate to blame people who get blown up for making stupid decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/232 "2021-03-21T13:56:11Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > nor a wrongful act. It is when it causes lots of people to leave. For me, that is more important, but from a balance perspective there is no real balance mechanic to suicide ganking because you choose the exchange, and the exchange is always positive. as i said if you drop 1m ships for 500m with the loot, you are never at a loss. On top of this, generally speaking people do not need to farm because of the high income rates. Its broken, both for the health of the game and in balance perspective. We’ve nerfed everything else, its time suicide ganking gets it (by rejecting it to low sec to actually kill a second problem, which is, its uselessness). ---
**Author:** ![Oneiros\_Pax](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oneiros_pax/32/472972_2.png) [@Oneiros\_Pax](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oneiros_Pax)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/233 "2021-03-21T13:58:15Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > Punishment is a form of deterrence. And yet time and time again real world studies have shown that punishment is not an effective deterrent to crime. This is in the real world where punishment can have significant impact to lives; I doubt that punishment in a pixel world will be more impactful. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/234 "2021-03-21T14:02:08Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > It is when it causes lots of people to leave. If getting blown up in a game about spaceships blowing up makes a player leave, that’s a problem with the player, not the game or the act of blowing up spaceships. Also CCP has studied it and, statistically speaking, getting blown up increases player retention, rather than reducing it. > [@Oneiros\_Pax](#): > > And yet time and time again real world studies have shown that punishment is not an effective deterrent to crime. _Increasing the severity of punishment_ doesn’t impact crime rates. The perception that the chances of being caught are high deters crime because… punishment deters crime (otherwise the high chances of being caught wouldn’t have any impact). For some people (people with frontocortical defecits, psychopaths, anti-social personality disorder, etc) punishment is not an effective deterrent. But that’s due to pathology. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 2:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/235 "2021-03-21T14:06:58Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > If getting blown up in a game about spaceships blowing up makes a player leave, that’s a problem with the player, not the game or the act of blowing up spaceships. No, its a design problem. You don’t start a business and tell people “hey, if you don’t like it leave”. That results in dead businesses, or in this case a dead game and business. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/236 "2021-03-21T14:09:28Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > No, its a design problem. Not really. If EVE was designed to be a harsh, punishing game, then design elements that make it a harsh, punishing game are not problems. > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > You don’t start a business and tell people “hey, if you don’t like it leave”. That results in dead businesses, or in this case a dead game and business. EVE Online seems to be doing okay. It’s one of the longest running MMORPGs on the market. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/237 "2021-03-21T14:12:13Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > If EVE was designed to be a harsh, punishing game, then design elements that make it a harsh, punishing game are not problems. As it was pointed out, what it was and what it is are not the same thing anymore. On this topic any time you are so stuck in your ways to not move on and advance with time you get lost in the past. These are among the chief problems ccp has. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/238 "2021-03-21T14:14:48Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > As it was pointed out, what it was and what it is are not the same thing anymore. What EVE was and what it is are still the same: a harsh, punishing game. There have been some _design problems_ in regards to things like asset safety, overabundance of NPC stations, timers on citadels, etc. CCP has worked at cross-purposes over the years, but growing sentiment among the devs (especially CCP Hilmar) is that they want to return to core ethos of EVE Online being a social game of groups working together, balancing risks with rewards. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/239 "2021-03-21T14:15:47Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > EVE Online seems to be doing okay. It’s one of the longest running MMORPGs on the market. Is it though? Last we know there was around 40% of the population being alts, and we can safely assume its much worse then that now (with various stunts like mention above, and the obvious spam of alts these days on top of removing that data from the public). Its clear its probably over half of the online players (and i suspect even up to 60%). Even at 40% population we are looking at around 17,000 (ish) concurrent players. that is almost a third (of the previous est 40,000 unique players online at peak). This is a massive difference. 2/3rds of the population of eve is gone, and it has not healed in the slightest, and the prospect to making that happen is not looking good because we are stuck on this past. Something has to change, for the sake of ccp and the game. ---
**Author:** ![Mu\_ad\_Diib](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mu_ad_diib/32/389247_2.png) [@Mu\_ad\_Diib](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mu_ad_Diib)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/240 "2021-03-21T14:15:57Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > … sometimes the victim _does_ share in the blame, or at least _plays a role_ in the event. That’s a completely fair point and I can’t disagree. However they are still a victim though. Whilst it’s entirely fair to point out that they might be foolish, it’s not okay to say that it’s all their fault. For a victim to exist, someone has to take advantage of them and that makes them the perpetrator. > [@](#): > > We’re playing a video game, though. Suicide ganking and blowing up ships in EVE Online is not a against the rules nor a wrongful act. So it’s entirely appropriate to blame people who get blown up for making stupid decisions. I’d partially agree with you here. Blowing up ships is a core part of the game and that’s a fact. I could have a big debate about the style of conflict but in truth that’s a different argument. However the loss of a ship does not necessarily equate to the person flying it being some kind of fool. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes they really are a fool, but not always. > [@Oneiros\_Pax](#): > > And yet time and time again real world studies have shown that punishment is not an effective deterrent to crime. This is in the real world where punishment can have significant impact to lives; I doubt that punishment in a pixel world will be more impactful. I totally agree. 🐁 ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186/241 "2021-03-21T14:23:53Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > Is it though? Yes, EVE Online is one of the longest running MMORPGs on the market. > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > Last we know there was around 40% of the population being alts This doesn’t really have anything to do with what I said. But do you have a source to corroborate this? Because CCP has released data on this: ![MMGqVO2](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/9/a/9a48aaa121838d21703c9c91860e379dc5002322.png) > [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > (of the previous est 40,000 unique players online at peak). Where are you getting your numbers from? > [@Mu\_ad\_Diib](#): > > For a victim to exist, someone has to take advantage of them and that makes them the perpetrator. This is not necessarily the case. If I physically assault you, I am the aggressive party and you are the victim, _HOWEVER_, if your response to my assault is to _illegally shoot and kill me_, now I am a murder victim. But I’m still largely to blame, because I shouldn’t be assaulting people. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186.md?page=11) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-will-always-be-a-niche-game/299186.md?page=13)