# Even with a massive alliance move we hit really low player count numbers **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2024, 5:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717 "2024-11-12T05:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/184 "2024-12-22T18:35:23Z")
Well, the phrase “ganking has been nerfed many times” kind of implies that, yeah. If you’d said “ganking has been repeatedly nerfed and buffed” that would be more accurate. Not trying to split hairs here - just wanted to clarify that ganking has seen at least as many buffs as nerfs. In any event, players still gank - so buffs/nerfs aside - it’s obviously still a viable career choice. ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/185 "2024-12-22T19:04:33Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > when a ganker posts about carebears ruining the game Have to stop you right there, Kezrai. No ganker would surely accuse carebears of ruining the game, yet depend upon them and their ignorance and inattention for his bread-and-butter, gameplay-wise. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > this statement is based on almost 2 decades of observation and experience in EVE and the forums I’m sure your experience and powers of observation are as good as mine - perhaps, better - but experience and observation are not substitutes for factual information. They may inform an opinion or provide additional colour to facts, but their clear lack of objectivity makes them unreliable as arbitors. And this applies to me, too. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > isn’t easy to link hard evidence Then stick to ‘in my opinion…’, otherwise I could be deceived into thinking you weren’t simply generalising, subjectively and vaguely. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Removing jetcanning killed my playstyle I wasn’t playing when this was a thing; I cannot argue it. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Crimewatch and/or Safety killed my playstyle, or are carebear mechanics that shouldn’t exist” I have long argued on the Forum that the Crimewatch mechanics are in need of review. Gank targets seem to agree, from what I’ve read, though their notion of the outcome of such a review is likely to be at variance with mine. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Warp stabs need to be removed from game I don’t recall reading such a statement on the Forum. It may be true, I suppose. If such a comment was made, isn’t it possible it came from some group other than that of Highsec Suicide-Gankers? Suicide-Gankers I know couldn’t care less about WCSs. They never inhibited any gank in which I took part. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > We need to go back to cheap, easily declarable wardecs on every corp I have read remarks similar to this. They’re often made by folks who don’t know/understand the reason the feature was changed. I have only said that I believe it is wrong to tie Wardecs to structures. Again, I’ve not heard full-time gankers voice this opinion. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Players shouldn’t be allowed to stay in starter NPC corps This is a whole other matter, in which there are good arguments on both sides. Until CCP sorts out exactly what a Corp is/should be we’ll get no further with it, I think. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > People shouldn’t be allowed to avoid wardecs You seem to have moved from discussing ganking to fulminating about opinions expressed about Wardecs. I’m sure some people have written along the lines of your quote, but it really isn’t important to me at the moment. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > > > Ganking has been nerfed many times > > Indeed it has, which indicates CCP is aware it’s a problem. CCP continuously balances game features and mechanics. It may well be that ganking posed a problem or that barge EHP posed a problem, or that infinite bumping posed a problem. CCP fixed those things, as they had every right to do. I have never complained about it. When ganking has been buffed, I have welcomed it. There is no issue here. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > it’s a bad idea to try to base the PvP in a game on the concept of a small number of wolves hunting a large number of sheep That is nature. Apex predators are always fewer in number than those they predate. The EVE food chain is a good example of Art imitating Life! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It’s drastically bad for player retention or engagement. If it were so, CCP would have removed such activities from the game, not tried to manage what was ‘drastically bad’. The bottom line is the bottom line and should not be messed with. Thank you for an interesting and thought-provoking read! ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/186 "2024-12-22T20:44:11Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > Have to stop you right there, Kezrai. No ganker would surely accuse carebears of ruining the game Literally in this same thread: > [@Kaely\_Tanniss](#): > > Please don’t try to tell me it chases players away. Chasing away toxic players that don’t understand the game they choose to play is not a detriment to Eve, it’s beneficial to its longevity. > [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > EvE neither needs nor wants those players. Next up: > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > You seem to have moved from discussing ganking to fulminating about opinions expressed about Wardecs. I’m sure some people have written along the lines of your quote, but it really isn’t important to me at the moment. Again, nearly every post in this thread, I’ve mentioned both ganking and wardecs. _Gankers_ made posts that focus on ganking, not me. Also, you asked for validation for my statements, but then dismiss them as unimportant to you. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > That is nature. Apex predators are always fewer in number than those they predate. The EVE food chain is a good example of Art imitating Life! Actually, no. Because EVE isn’t a self-regulating ecosystem with billions of years of trial and error adjustment behind it. Plus of course, if it really was nature, all those apex predators would be getting hunted down and eliminated. Just like in, you know, ‘nature’. And just as a side note, hiding in safe space and hunting unarmed targets doesn’t actually make you an ‘apex predator’. In nature those things are called scavengers or opportunists, more like rats and weasels than bears or lions. A far more accurate comparison would be you saying “The strong _should_ be able to victimize the weak, those with weapons _should_ be able to harm and steal from those without, that’s just ‘Might makes Right’ and it’s the way humans interact.” Except… humans don’t interact that way, at least not for long. Virtually all societies evolve to remove or reduce the impact that violent people can have to harm and steal from more productive people. As have the vast majority of “simulated” societies otherwise known as MMOs. While it isn’t necessary for EVE to copy other games or to remove all its’ harsher aspects, it simply makes sense to learn from all the previous errors and failures of open-world, full loot PvP in MMOs. At any rate, once again, suggestions that there might be better ways to do high-sec PvP, better ways to do wardecs, better ways to engage more players rather than drive them out of the game… is met with full-scale rejection and denial by a small handful of gankers. One wonders what it is about discussing the potential for better systems that threatens them so? ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/187 "2024-12-22T20:57:53Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Plus of course, if it really was nature, all those apex predators would be getting hunted down and eliminated. But they are. Eve isn’t just gankers vs miners…it is also all levels of predator vs all other levels of predator. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > At any rate, once again, suggestions that there might be better ways to do high-sec PvP, better ways to do wardecs, better ways to engage more players rather than drive them out of the game… is met with full-scale rejection and denial by a small handful of gankers. > > One wonders what it is about discussing the potential for better systems that threatens them so? Probably because the only thing Eve _really_ needs rescuing from is those who keep trying to rescue it. I’m pretty sure Eve would thrive even better without their ‘help’. ---
**Author:** ![ISD\_Kai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_kai/32/402812_2.png) [@ISD\_Kai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Kai)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/188 "2024-12-22T21:47:35Z")
3 posts have been removed for spam. ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/189 "2024-12-22T22:13:58Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > No ganker would surely accuse carebears of ruining the game You’re posting very loosely tonight (UK), Kezrai. Neither of the two statements you quoted states or implies that the writers thought carebears were ruining the game. Kaely pointed out that some players are toxic; that their removal from the game may be ‘beneficial’. They may _poison_ EVE, but the game continues - and not in a state of ruination (for the ganker or anyone else). Aiko (dear Aiko!) made a simple point that the sort of players she has in mind do not benefit the game, and implied that ‘the game’ could very well do without them. Again, no statement or implication about EVE being ‘ruined’ by their presence. So, I’m afraid, you are simply wrong. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > you asked for validation for my statements, but then dismiss them as unimportant to you. Be fair, Kezrai, it was clear that when I wrote ‘it really isn’t important to me’, that my comment referred directly to your ‘People shouldn’t be allowed to avoid wardecs’, which I quoted in the box above it. No other explanation is possible. The validation I requested was of your assertions that gankers had made attributable statements which I doubted. You have conflated what I said about ganking with what I said about wardecs. Easily done, I know, but I strive to be clear about such things. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > if it really was nature, all those apex predators would be getting hunted down and eliminated. That is what would happen in EVE, too, if - you know - the anti-gankers could get their act together! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > better ways to engage more players rather than drive them out of the game… is met with full-scale rejection and denial by a small handful of gankers. You are wrong, again. Engaging players ensures a ready supply of content for the ganker. Why would he opt for a ‘full scale rejection’ of something which might bring him entertainment? I can’t speak for other gankers, but for me, I do not care whether a miner stays and mines or moans and leaves. There has never been a dearth of content as far as I’m concerned. Well, we are having an interesting exchange of views tonight, Kezrai. I have enjoyed mulling over your comments, even though I found some of them…loosely conceived. No matter; perhaps we’re both the better for it! ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/190 "2024-12-22T22:44:47Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > > > Warp stabs need to be removed from game > > I don’t recall reading such a statement on the Forum. It may be true, I suppose. If such a comment was made, isn’t it possible it came from some group other than that of Highsec Suicide-Gankers? Suicide-Gankers I know couldn’t care less about WCSs. They never inhibited any gank in which I took part. The ones generally complaining about these modules are the players that habitually take part in FW, and usually the complaint is in conjunction with pointing fingers at botting and/or seagulling ---
**Author:** ![James\_Fuchs](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_fuchs/32/504955_2.png) [@James\_Fuchs](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Fuchs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 11:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/191 "2024-12-22T23:13:32Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > if it really was nature, all those apex predators would be getting hunted down and eliminated. That’s not what an Apex predator is. They’re at the top of the foodchain, because nobody hunts them, like a lion or something. But OK, keep engaging in those violent fantasies, may it help you to cope with the loss of your heron from seven years ago. You still raging with your entire heart and soul over this nothing burger is the best showcase that us gankers drive player engagement. Point me to any other game where a dude loses less than 1 cent of value and then loses his mind for the entire next decade. No, you can’t, welcome to EVE Online. With soothing regards -James Fuchs ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2024, 11:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/192 "2024-12-22T23:41:36Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Literally in this same thread: > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > Have to stop you right there, Kezrai. No ganker would surely accuse carebears of ruining the game > [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > EvE neither needs nor wants those players. Kezrai, you seem to write a lot, but you should think more. Did I actually say carebears are ruining the game? Oh, I just said we don’t need them. I’m sure that’s a different sentence, and the fact you equate them is evidence you either lack basic reading comprehension skills, or you are intellectually dishonest and distorting what others have actually said. What do you think? Can you admit I didn’t say what you said, or will you continue pretending to be smarter than you are? > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > Aiko (dear Aiko!) made a simple point that the sort of players she has in mind do not benefit the game, and implied that ‘the game’ could very well do without them. Again, no statement or implication about EVE being ‘ruined’ by their presence. So, I’m afraid, you are simply wrong. Other people can understand this, why can’t you? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2024, 3:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/193 "2024-12-23T03:57:48Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > Neither of the two statements you quoted states or implies that the writers thought carebears were ruining the game. The argument is not so much that carebears are ruining the game, but that those who claim to speak _on behalf of_ carebears are doing so. Carebears do at least undock and have killboards and signs of activity in the game. But again and again, it is so consistent, those who claim to speak on behalf of carebears…and lecture everyone about PvP…have zero sign of any recent undocking. Thus a great deal of vicarious carebear care is really little more than imaginative theorycrafting from ivory towers… ’ Thinks of the noobs’…from people who haven’t actually _been_ a noob in decades. ‘Ganking is evil’ ( or easy )…from people who have never even _been_ ganked or ever _done_ any. Lessons in PvP…from people who do not appear to have ever _done_ any PvP. _This_ is what is ruining the game…when CCP listen to these people as if they actually know what they are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2024, 5:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/194 "2024-12-23T05:08:23Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > intellectually dishonest Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![Verlyn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/verlyn/32/435163_2.png) [@Verlyn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Verlyn)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/195 "2024-12-23T17:17:37Z")
Here’s a CCP endorsed solution to your problem: Farm skillpoints and assimilate into the multiboxing collective. You will be dead, but on indefinite life support. ---
**Author:** ![Kaely\_Tanniss](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaely_tanniss/32/474209_2.png) [@Kaely\_Tanniss](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaely_Tanniss)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/196 "2024-12-23T20:28:09Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Well, I literally provided two pieces of evidence direct from CCP in the post you’re referring to. In my post…I said nothing about wardecs. You are deflecting and attempting to group ganking and wardecs so that you can post something about wardecs (old by the way) and group ganking into the same category as to give validity to your argument. Ganking and the war dec mechanics are not the same, and never at any time were they. If you have evidence specifically on ganking and evidence of the metrics to support it, please share it, not something you can compare to it, but actual metrics about ganking and how it shows player loss/reduction because of it. I’m looking for irrefutable specifics, not conjecture or opinion on how they are perceived to be alike. It’s a numbers game. If one doesn’t have the numbers, they have no case or basis for a case. I legitimately want to see such evidence, if it exists anywhere but here and reddit. I’m no ganker…but if you want to tell people they are wrong, you need to have absolute proof of that fact…something that in all the years and all the arguments, I’ve yet to see. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2024, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/197 "2024-12-23T22:01:26Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Well, I literally provided two pieces of evidence direct from CCP Do you have any recent information, or just cherrypicking ancient history? ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/200 "2024-12-24T00:15:25Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Oh for God’s sake. I get so utterly sick of this ‘non-consensual’ BS. Everyone and their dog knows that to undock IS consent. Some newer players might disagree about what ‘everyone and their dog knows’: ( Continuing the discussion from [Ganking makes Eve a better place] ) ([Ganking makes Eve a better place - #142 by Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-makes-eve-a-better-place/317690/142)): > [@Ganking makes Eve a better place](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-makes-eve-a-better-place/317690/142): > > The problem with your opening post ( which in general I agree with ) is that you have the retrospective hindsight of much knowledge and that’s something that tends to blur how one would oneself have responded to being ganked early on in Eve. > > Most people joining Eve have never heard of ganking. They’re just here to check it all out…see what this ‘space game’ is all about. Some argue that getting blown to bits by a horde of 15 gankers shows them. I disagree. It’s akin to playing Half Life and meeting Nihilanth in the first minute when all you have is a crowbar. The point is not whether it is ‘fair’ or not, but that the game is already hard enough to learn and probably only 10% survive the first few weeks. It doesn’t ‘need’ to be made harder. > > So I’d 100% agree with your post, in relation to careless old timers, whilst I can fully understand why for a noob a gank might just be the last straw in what’s already a tough learning curve. Plus, by your definition, there are NO games with NC-PvP. Since ‘everybody knows’ there’s NC-PvP in the game, therefore by logging in they consent. I realize that rigorous arguments aren’t your style, but you should spend at least a moment or two thinking before your knee-jerk responses. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/201 "2024-12-24T01:12:40Z")
Now you are just desperately fumbling about. The fact is…the character you dug up DIDN’T leave Eve due to being ganked. Oh…you conveniently overlooked that bit didn’t you. And as always, you haven’t actually answered the points made but just evaded them, diverted with red herrings, and thrown in a bunch of ad hominem. Never once do you actually deal with the fact that ‘non consensual’ PvP has never, ever, been a part of Eve in its entire 21 year history. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/202 "2024-12-24T01:52:45Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > by your definition, there are NO games with NC-PvP. I mean, honestly, are there? ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 2:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/204 "2024-12-24T02:08:46Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > I mean, honestly, are there? That’s a valid question. Without doing a ton of research, I’d be inclined to say that technically, or at least in some ways, the answer is no. _Assuming_ the player did their research first. Personally, before I start any new game, I’ve looked up the website, checked their game descriptions, searched several sites for reviews, and probably watched a gameplay video. It seems unlikely that any player that did that wouldn’t learn about the PvP in a game beforehand. So the claim could be made that just by choosing to log in they’ve consented. That said, it’s clear that many, perhaps most, gamers don’t do that kind of research, and often just download games on impulse. Although, CCP’s stats show that about half the potential new players that sign up for the game never actually log in. So it’s possible they’re doing the research and then choosing not to participate. That said, it’s just more hairsplitting. My points aren’t about whether EVE is truly, technically non-con or not. Or whether ganking should be removed, or carebears should be protected. Those are all the true ‘red herrings’ that some posters, mostly gankers, keep throwing out to make sure serious discussions get derailed. The point is, there are almost certainly better ways to handle wardecs, or ganking, or introducing new players to PvP, or teaching them how to avoid PvP if so desired, than EVE currently has. That’s potentially threatening to a fairly small group of players who are very, _very_ invested in keeping things as they are. But since those people keep saying they’re elite, the best, and most knowledgeable players in the game, if things change I’m sure they’ll find ways to adapt. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 2:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/205 "2024-12-24T02:23:25Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The point is, there are almost certainly better ways to handle wardecs, or ganking, or introducing new players to PvP, or teaching them how to avoid PvP if so desired, than EVE currently has. Ok, so, you are done writing now? You said it, so you are done - right? ---
**Author:** ![ISD\_Kai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_kai/32/402812_2.png) [@ISD\_Kai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Kai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2024, 11:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/209 "2024-12-24T11:06:33Z")
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