# Even with a massive alliance move we hit really low player count numbers **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2024, 5:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717 "2024-11-12T05:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Isarzay\_Audier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isarzay_audier/32/421775_2.png) [@Isarzay\_Audier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Isarzay_Audier)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/210 "2025-01-09T09:27:57Z")
Should just lock it at this point , this is just a cesspool of nothing important 💀 ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/211 "2025-01-09T16:33:52Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The point is, there are almost certainly better ways to handle wardecs, or ganking, or introducing new players to PvP, or teaching them how to avoid PvP if so desired, than EVE currently has. > > That’s potentially threatening to a fairly small group of players who are very, _very_ invested in keeping things as they are. But since those people keep saying they’re elite, the best, and most knowledgeable players in the game, if things change I’m sure they’ll find ways to adapt. Everyone’s idea of ‘better’ will be different, and will often make life worse for others. There really isn’t often a happy medium, as most things people want for ‘better’ can’t be half done…they are either integral steps or complete removals. That is why the best improvements are those that affect one side without affecting the other. I long ago suggested an optional ‘play pen’ area for noobs under 60 days. They can voluntarily leave when they want, but get booted out into ‘Eve proper’ after 60 days. This would have very little impact on most ganking…sure, people under 60 days do get ganked but its a small percentage…and would give noobs more time to learn the ropes. ---
**Author:** ![Argel\_OTF2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argel_otf2/32/388676_2.png) [@Argel\_OTF2](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argel_OTF2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 1:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/212 "2025-01-10T13:32:14Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > The argument is not so much that carebears are ruining the game, but that those who claim to speak _on behalf of_ carebears are doing so. Carebears do at least undock and have killboards and signs of activity in the game. But again and again, it is so consistent, those who claim to speak on behalf of carebears…and lecture everyone about PvP…have zero sign of any recent undocking. > > Thus a great deal of vicarious carebear care is really little more than imaginative theorycrafting from ivory towers… > > ’ Thinks of the noobs’…from people who haven’t actually _been_ a noob in decades. > ‘Ganking is evil’ ( or easy )…from people who have never even _been_ ganked or ever _done_ any. > Lessons in PvP…from people who do not appear to have ever _done_ any PvP. > > _This_ is what is ruining the game…when CCP listen to these people as if they actually know what they are talking about. This is far and away the reason EVE is broken. When you set impossible bars for people to talk about their own and others’ experiences, it is simply because you are scared that they may actually be right. EVE is complex and balancing the needs of older and newer players is difficult, but saying that people are not entitled to be considered as acting in good faith if they do not gank, or have not recently ganked, or haven’t played much, or started too long ago, or any other completely arbitrary reason that you have decided, is a terrible argument that is why most people choose to walk away. Ultimately you can pretend that the other people have been listened to and that has ‘ruined the game’, yet the ‘carebears’ remain largely uncatered to in terms of the dynamic between veteran and new players. What is it you feel that carebears have been given in the last decade specifically to stop ganking? ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/213 "2025-01-10T14:06:44Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > This is far and away the reason EVE is broken. When you set impossible bars for people to talk about their own and others’ experiences, it is simply because you are scared that they may actually be right. Actually, no. Because players who read forums make up about 5% of the player base of games. And forumites generally don’t do it until after they start playing, and they’re generally more likely to stick with a game. And CCP doesn’t pay much attention to the forums anyway. Yes, Gloria only wants an echo chamber where only people who’ve effectively proven they share the same viewpoint in the game have valid opinions. But that’s effectively irrelevant to EVE’s success or lack thereof. You and Gloria actually share a problem, you both tend to think that your own personal experience is “the core of what drives the game”, for good or bad. Even though you’re both outliers on the curve. And in Gloria’s case, even though their viewpoint shifts every time they try something different in the game. EVE has 25,000 accounts online right now. Maybe 200 of those are in the forum. Your story and circumstances are very important to you (or Gloria). But they’re only one story in hundreds of thousands of players. “Far and away the reason EVE is broken” is because it has some structurally bad mismatches between what players expect from EVE and what EVE delivers. Because CCP doesn’t really appear to understand the connection between the way they design the game and the things that actually motivate players. And so it’s always only appealed to a very niche audience, and that niche audience is getting smaller over time. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/214 "2025-01-10T14:08:24Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > When you set impossible bars for people to talk about their own and others’ experiences No…I’m talking about the large number of cases where people _aren’t_ talking about their own experience, which is more than welcome, but are theorycrafting and generalising the experience of others. It’s where people extrapolate their experience, or that of a friend or acquaintance, or even something they have vaguely heard of, and somehow work out that _everyone_ has that experience. This vicarious ‘caring’ is the problem, not because the people doing it may not actually be caring, but because they really _don’t_ have the widespread information to be able to speak on behalf of all players. > [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > but saying that people are not entitled to be considered as acting in good faith if they do not gank, or have not recently ganked, or haven’t played much, or started too long ago, or any other completely arbitrary reason that you have decided I wouldn’t make recommendations to CCP about wormholes as I have rarely ever been in a wormhole. So how is it OK for people who have never done any PvP to make recommendations to CCP about PvP ? We get so many ‘XYZ is ruining Eve’ threads from people who have never done or experienced XYZ. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/215 "2025-01-10T14:11:54Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You and Gloria actually share a problem, you both tend to think that your own personal experience is “the core of what drives the game”, for good or bad. No…I’ve never said anything of the sort. My whole point has been that people recommending to CCP what they should do about some ‘issue’ ought to actually have had direct experience of that issue. That I _do_ comment just on my personal experience is the whole point ! I’m not telling CCP what they should do about wormholes, when I’ve rarely been in one. ---
**Author:** ![Argel\_OTF2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argel_otf2/32/388676_2.png) [@Argel\_OTF2](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argel_OTF2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/216 "2025-01-10T14:28:24Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > I wouldn’t make recommendations to CCP about wormholes as I have rarely ever been in a wormhole. So how is it OK for people who have never done any PvP to make recommendations to CCP about PvP ? We get so many ‘XYZ is ruining Eve’ threads from people who have never done or experienced XYZ. Because there’s likely a fairly broad definition of PVP that means most players have engaged with it in some way. Saying people have to have _been_ gankers to dislike the current ganking mechanics is reductive. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/217 "2025-01-10T14:32:36Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > most players… Your source of information for this is ? See, this is precisely my point. People throw about ‘most players’ like confetti…based on assumptions and not actual data. ---
**Author:** ![Argel\_OTF2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argel_otf2/32/388676_2.png) [@Argel\_OTF2](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argel_OTF2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/218 "2025-01-10T14:33:56Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Your source of information for this is ? My source is the experience of myself and 20 other players I joined with. You think most players have not engaged in a form of PVP? I would say that is a bolder statement. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/219 "2025-01-10T14:35:09Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > My source is the experience of myself and 20 other players I joined with. And you and 20 others are ‘most players’ ? That’s odd…I thought there were 28,000 people playing. ---
**Author:** ![Argel\_OTF2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argel_otf2/32/388676_2.png) [@Argel\_OTF2](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argel_OTF2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/220 "2025-01-10T14:36:59Z")
Fair enough, being obtuse is one way of doing it. Do you have any evidence that ‘most players’ don’t engage with PVP? ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/221 "2025-01-10T14:45:30Z")
> [@What is Causing EVE to Die?](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/what-is-causing-eve-to-die/469580/699): > > Speaking of multiboxing… or in this case multi-threading. face_with_hand_over_mouth ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/222 "2025-01-10T14:48:41Z")
I don’t have any evidence either way…which is precisely why I wouldn’t say what ‘most players’ do. The _whole point_ about personal experience is not that it is generic for everyone…quite the reverse. It is that it provides precisely the ability to refute ‘most players’ type arguments or ’ XYZ is making noobs leave’ type arguments. Thus when people say ‘ganking makes people leave’…I can at least say, well it didn’t make _me_ leave, and that at least counts as a data point against the argument. So its not a case of arguing that one’s experience is global…rather it is the ability to argue _against_ global arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Argel\_OTF2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argel_otf2/32/388676_2.png) [@Argel\_OTF2](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argel_OTF2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/223 "2025-01-10T14:57:49Z")
I joined with 20 players, and they absolutely had the same experience - in fact, we tried to work through it as a group. But like I said, this is just being obtuse and gatekeeping the argument. If you think that the majority of players haven’t experienced PVP in some form, and are therefore unequipped to talk about it, I think it’s because you’re afraid of what they would say about it. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/224 "2025-01-10T15:09:36Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > I joined with 20 players Gosh…lucky you. Yet somehow none of your 20 colleagues would defend your wormhole while you were away for a few days ? Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Argel\_OTF2](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/argel_otf2/32/388676_2.png) [@Argel\_OTF2](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Argel_OTF2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/225 "2025-01-10T15:39:05Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Gosh…lucky you. Yet somehow none of your 20 colleagues would defend your wormhole while you were away for a few days ? Hmm. Did you miss the part where that was 8 years prior and they all left within a few months? or are you just doing your roundabout thing again? Ignore the substance, focus on something glib. Like I said, gatekeeping an argument you know you’d be afraid of hearing unfiltered. ---
**Author:** ![Akkar\_Kardashev](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/akkar_kardashev/32/514189_2.png) [@Akkar\_Kardashev](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Akkar_Kardashev)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/226 "2025-01-10T16:05:29Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > Ignore the substance, focus on something glib. Political debate globally since around 2006 or so. Always the same wing. You know what wing 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ARES\_DES1DERATA](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ares_des1derata/32/462269_2.png) [@ARES\_DES1DERATA](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ARES_DES1DERATA)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/227 "2025-01-10T16:14:50Z")
Who else was there in Jita when we all rioted to protest against CCP? (Tbh I forget what we were protesting at the moment 🤣 it’s been a while) Oh god. The game is decades old. Can someone tell me if CCP still have any of the original devs working on the game? What do you expect at this point? It’s not even just Eve, it’s everything these days - look what happened to Star Wars and Halo, these games get ran into the ground eventually when they get sold to corporations who operate strictly based on revenue. They’re only going to go for statistically what brings in the most bucks. And then of course you have all of the dumb carebears from other MMOs who want to bring other MMO game mechanics into Eve, where of course it doesn’t belong because Eve has never been about that life. Which is why it’s so unique even to this day. Eve is truly one of a kind. Can we fix it? Yes we can! Vote for Ares to Make Eve Great again! ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/228 "2025-01-10T16:36:34Z")
> [@Argel\_OTF2](#): > > Did you miss the part where… No, I think it’s more likely I simply ceased to care… [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/2/a/1/2a146dea940c208749f04c4e2d7a6f50a44346e6.jpeg "This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56O4G8VsiA) ---
**Author:** ![Suzanna\_Hadron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/suzanna_hadron/32/453810_2.png) [@Suzanna\_Hadron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Suzanna_Hadron)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2025, 9:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717/229 "2025-03-18T09:15:58Z")
Sorry to necro this post but I’ve been playing this game for 20 years and CCP have spent so much time adding new content that they forgot the upkeep of the core game mechanics and alienated the playerbase. You can say we’re negative here, but you really don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. You have, what, 6 months experience in this universe? You haven’t seen the way they’ve treated their paying customers at all during that time. You’re just seeing it from the starry-eyed noob perspective. Give it time and your eyes will also glaze over as you discover all the forgotten content that was added and never brought up to date. They once said they’d never have a way to buy skill points. Now we have skill extractors and injectors, turning the game into a skill-forcing churn. I was there when that happened, and it certainly wasn’t the first time CCP betrayed their players. You can pay your way all the way to the top if you like, rather than wait the 26 years it’ll take you to learn all the skills to max level. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/even-with-a-massive-alliance-move-we-hit-really-low-player-count-numbers/467717.md?page=12)