# Evolving EVE: A Universal Income **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 18, 2020, 12:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731 "2020-12-18T00:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/207 "2020-12-21T17:15:17Z")
Yeah but my point was exactly how to get that value : instead of arbitrary hard number, use the market value of a set of items. This way the value will evolve with inflation, which solves partially that problem. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > When their budgets get too low, payouts for PvE activities would become smaller, and vice versa. It reminds me of a proposal. Having a fixed amount of cash in the game, and PVE generates not direct isk but a part of remaining isks. EG let’s say we have total 1Pisk in the game between the players, we assume it’s 75% of the total we accept, so we go with 1.33P isk max, currently we are at 75% so we get only 25% of the value of the isk creation. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/209 "2020-12-21T17:23:21Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Okay, so we ignore that EVE’s a game and people are supposed to be playing it to make ISK. EVE is a game, and people are supposed to be playing it to _have fun_. The goal for the player is to have fun, and making ISK is one of the activities you can perform in the game. Sometimes they overlap, but they aren’t mutually inclusive by any means. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > What’s wrong with the solution of buying PLEX? Plenty of players are school/colleged-aged kids, and don’t have the real-life income in order to be able to do that? > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Why would you believe it would not cause massive inflation to give every omega ten million ISK per day? We’ve discussed that early on. This (sample) figure would still amount to just a small fraction of the overall daily ISK generation in the game. Also, it could be fairly easily offset by a small tax that most players wouldn’t register. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > It appears to me that you are trying to accomodate the _lazy_, ultimately creating self-entitled people. > You just don’t want to call them lazy. You want to call them the group of people who “just don’t want to make the ISK right now”. > > You’re not aware of this? You’re lumping being lazy into the same category as being unproductive, and they’re not the same thing. If a player, upon receiving a grant, uses that money for something that interests them, then they’re engaging with the game, and by effect _not_ being lazy, even if they _are_ being unproductive because whatever they decide to do isn’t intended to generate more wealth. Like I said, you’ve been corrupted by bootstrap-pulling propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/210 "2020-12-21T17:42:06Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > EVE is a game, and people are supposed to be playing it to _have fun_ No, EVE definitely is not a game that people play solely to have fun. I am absolutely certain that each and every one of us … … more often than not … … did not have fun at times, but knew it was necessary anyway. This game also really isn’t all about fun. It’s also about satisfaction. That seems to be the direction CCP is heading again, but we’ll see. > [@CONCORD introduces the Dynamic Bounty System](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/concord-introduces-the-dynamic-bounty-system/275498/1098): > > No. Fun and satisfaction talk about two very different things. > > You can have fun without feeling satisfied afterwards … > … and you can feel satisfied without having had any fun doing what it is you were doing. > > Fun is something you feel while doing something … > … and satisfaction is what you feel after successfully doing it. > > When there’s no success there’s no satisfaction, of course. > > “I had fun mining all these rocks!” > “I’ve mined so many rocks! I feel satisfied about my achievement today!” EVE is not a game that’s _supposed_ to be fun. If you only ever play games for “fun”, then that’s just sad. Lots of people play games for other reasons. You might call them “fun” but that would be horribly inaccurate and using “fun” as a catch-all term is invalid, because “fun” and “satisfaction” aren’t the same things. I could say that EVE is a game about _satisfaction_ and it would be more true than your claim. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Plenty of players are school/colleged-aged kids, and don’t have the real-life income in order to be able to do that? And what’s wrong with that? Plenty of people can’t afford many things! Why do you believe people should be _entitled_ to playing a game without putting any effort into it? > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > and by effect _not_ being lazy, No, he’s still being lazy. He doesn’t to put effort into things so he can have fun. For work you get rewards. For no work you get no rewards. Why would people get rewarded for doing no work? > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Like I said, you’ve been corrupted by bootstrap-pulling propaganda. Is this going to be your longest con ever? ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/211 "2020-12-21T17:53:49Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Why do you believe people should be _entitled_ to playing a game without putting any effort into it? Putting an effort into _playing a game_ and putting an effort into _earning an income within a game_ are **not the same thing**. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > No, he’s still being lazy. He doesn’t to put effort into things so he can have fun. > For work you get rewards. For no work you get no rewards. > > Why would people get rewarded for doing no work? This isn’t a **reward** for anything; it’s baselined into the default game experience for **all** players, and is naturally structured in such a way that newer and/or poorer players are able to derive the most advantage from it. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > No, EVE definitely is not a game that people play solely to have fun. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > This game also really isn’t all about fun. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > EVE is not a game that’s _supposed_ to be fun. If you only ever play games for “fun”, then that’s just sad. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/6/6/6604b0c69a2f4fe218eda34af1e3c4c9a05e0466.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/213 "2020-12-21T18:35:50Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Putting an effort into _playing a game_ and putting an effort into _earning an income within a game_ are **not the same thing**. “Putting an effort into _playing a game_ and putting an effort into _earning XP for better gear_ are **not the same thing**.” Okay so why are there so many games out there where your sole purpose is to grind XP for higher levels, etc? I’m pretty sure that people need to put effort into grinding XP and they believe it’s playing the game. Why would that be any different for EVE? Making ISK is part of the game, no? Not feeling like it is a valid choice, but that choice equals not wanting to play the game as required, no? Are you telling me that everyone in WoW should just get base XP every day in case he doesn’t feel like grinding … … while grinding is 90% of the game anyway? Really? You’re abusing the word “fun” too much and you don’t seem to be wanting to talk about that. As you rather not, I guess there’s a good reason. The reason might be, because there’s so many idiots out there who don’t understand that the world doesn’t revolve around fun and that many people aren’t actually playing it for “fun”, but for “satisfaction”. You don’t understand the difference, or you don’t want to upset your audience. As you’re not as simple minded, one dimensional and stupid as the evolutionary rejects like Lucas Kell … _(… who now begs for my attention …)_ … who is/are believing this is a good idea … … i wish you good luck with this … uhm … content. 🙂 You know damn well CCP won’t ever do this and I really love that face, btw. It’s … perfect. I’m impressed. 😃 Edit: Greetings, moderator. Thank you for paying attention to my post. I’m not even calling anyone an asshole, but of course it gets flagged because “stupid” and “evolutionary rejects” are _horrible_ things to say … … and children should not ever use these words at all! The horror! ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/214 "2020-12-21T19:09:40Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > “Putting an effort into _playing a game_ and putting an effort into _earning XP for better gear_ are **not the same thing**.” > > Okay so why are there so many games out there where your sole purpose is to grind XP for higher levels, etc? > I’m pretty sure that people need to put effort into grinding XP and they believe it’s playing the game. > > Why would that be any different for EVE? Making ISK is part of the game, no? > Not feeling like it is a valid choice, but that choice equals not wanting to play the game as required, no? Saying that the sole purpose of playing games is to grind for XP is a very flawed perspective. In those other games, such as the WoW that is your example (a game I played for a long time, actually), the act of progressing via experience gain is integrated into a well-crafted world, with an engaging story, deep lore, and interesting scripted events. You level up in WoW by completing quests, and being engaged in the Warcraft universe. Then, when you’re done leveling up, you start doing end-game content (raiding and/or group-scale PvP). Both things are _fundamentally_ intended to be entertaining, and even though getting items is a big draw, it’s not really the _main_ point, as items that you get while leveling up lose their effectiveness, and getting items from end-game content isn’t guaranteed. So you’re effectively there for the ride, and the loot, if you’re able to get it, is just a bonus on top of that. On the other hand, EVE is almost entirely absent of any sort of game-driven experiences aside from some repetitive mission/anomaly text. Progression in EVE is simply _work_, and is absent of any interesting features or flavor that keeps players engaged. The _only_ draw of PvE content in EVE is to generate wealth. EVE’s saving grace is the way it enables open-world social interaction on a mass scale. If you take that away, there’s no way the game would be able to stand on the merit of its own content. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Are you telling me that everyone in WoW should just get base XP every day in case he doesn’t feel like grinding … > … while grinding is 90% of the game anyway? > > Really? If you believe that these games are 90% about grinding, you _really_ need to revisit your own reasons for playing them. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > You’re abusing the word “fun” too much and you don’t seem to be wanting to talk about that. As you rather not, I guess there’s a good reason. The reason might be, because there’s so many idiots out there who don’t understand that the world doesn’t revolve around fun and that many people aren’t actually playing it for “fun”, but for “satisfaction”. > > You don’t understand the difference, or you don’t want to upset your audience. Something fun _necessarily_ has to be satisfying. How is it possible for something that’s not fun (or entertaining, if you want another word) to not be satisfying at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/215 "2020-12-21T19:50:16Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Something fun _necessarily_ has to be satisfying. This one actually bugs me, because it’s really just flat out wrong. Worst is that you don’t even _try_ and know damn well that you don’t even have to. > [@CONCORD introduces the Dynamic Bounty System](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/concord-introduces-the-dynamic-bounty-system/275498/1098): > > No. Fun and satisfaction talk about two very different things. > > You can have fun without feeling satisfied afterwards … > … and you can feel satisfied without having had any fun doing what it is you were doing. > > Fun is something you feel while doing something … > … and satisfaction is what you feel after successfully doing it. > > When there’s no success there’s no satisfaction, of course. > > “I had fun mining all these rocks!” > “I’ve mined so many rocks! I feel satisfied about my achievement today!” You can have fun, or believe you’re having fun, and it’s not satisfying. Like, for example, getting blue-balled. It’s all fun until it ends. Then it’s painful. You of course didn’t know you’re going to get blue-balled, but that doesn’t change the fun you had until it stopped. Satisfaction isn’t going to happen … … which makes you crave doing it again, as foolish as it is. Fun does not guarantee satisfaction. Satisfaction does not guarantee fun. Neither require either to exist. If you can’t understand that then, sorry, I’m not sure I can make it even simpler. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > How is it possible for something that’s not fun (or entertaining, if you want another word) to not be satisfying at the same time? Why is it first about fun necessarily having to be satisfying and now about something _not_ fun _not_ being satisfying? Something also can be neither fun, nor satisfying. Like changing a full diaper, for example. If you do not understand this, then you should ask yourself why your perspective on the matter is so shallow … … instead of trying to convince me of your shallow perspective being actual reality. It isn’t. … Enjoy your circle-jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/216 "2020-12-21T20:03:48Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > You can have fun, or believe you’re having fun, and it’s not satisfying. I’m not sure whether or not we’re arguing semantics at this point. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Like, for example, getting blue-balled. It’s all fun until it stops. Then it’s painful. You’re assigning “fun” to a term that’s universally considered a negative thing. If you want to take it in this direction, then there’s something off here, because you’re not saying “teased” or “flirted,” but are jumping directly to something that’s considered a _bad_ thing, and a bad thing, by its very nature, can’t be fun. It’s the difference between “she spanked me” and “she beat the ■■■■■■■ ■■■■ out of me,” wherein the former might lead to a response of “niiice!” while the latter would lead to a response of “are you going to be okay? should I call someone?” So maybe it is semantics, because if not, I’m going to become highly concerned with your mental state after all of these “games aren’t supposed to be fun” and “blue-balling is fun” comments. Also, please don’t get my thread locked with the sexytime comments. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Why is it first about fun necessarily having to be satisfying and now about something _not_ fun _not_ being satisfying? The key attribute that links “fun” and “satisfying” is that both are _enjoyable_. These two concepts are _generally_ mutually inclusive, and _never_ mutually exclusive. “Satisfying” is the more encompassing term, however, and can be applied to physical and mental/emotional experiences, while “fun” is used to describe the latter in particular. Playing a game _satisfies_ people mentally/emotionally, as such, the term “fun” is very much applicable to gaming. But playing games can also be satisfying, in the sense that you feel accomplishment for achieving milestones, learning new skills, and interacting with others. I don’t see why it has to be one or the other. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Enjoy your circle-jerk. It’s not a circle-jerk just because we disagree on something. ---
**Author:** ![RealEchnaton](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/realechnaton/32/243119_2.png) [@RealEchnaton](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/RealEchnaton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/217 "2020-12-21T20:56:26Z")
> `> Grind a few extra workhours IRL` > `> Buy PLEX for $$` > `> Sell PLEX for ISK` > `> ...` > `> Universal monthly in-game income for you` If I have to do this way, I have everytime the feeling I lost eve, because I’m too stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/218 "2020-12-21T21:42:53Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > No, EVE definitely is not a game that people play solely to have fun. > > I am absolutely certain that each and every one of us … > … more often than not … > … did not have fun at times, but knew it was necessary anyway. Agreeing with Sol here. The game _elements_ themselves i.e., the means to make income, create standing, gather materials, LP, etc are not intended to be the fun factor in the game. They can be rewarding or satisfying if one sees the number going up (ISK in wallet etc), but those elements can hardly be called fun. They are just there to have a means to an income. The one exception that comes to mind is the market PvP, although this year’s changes have hampered it. Then again, market PvP is created by players, not devs. The real **fun** factor in EvE online is the interaction with other players, be it PvP, being in a good corp or a good open fleet, being on comms, making new acquaintances, liaising, connecting and creating situations one can talk about years later. In essence, the fun has to do with other people, not game elements that are intended to provide a way of creating an income (most of which is a grind, grinds are no _fun_). That is the lasting motivation for playing this game. And on the original post, this thought: It wouldn’t make any significant difference. Opening a new isk faucet for the benefit of the “poorer players” without shutting off isk faucets the “richer players” use would keep the difference alive. What’s all this focus on ISK for anyway ? If you have enough ISK to buy the stuff you want to have fun with you ARE rich. If a fat wallet is what really constitutes your fun then there are plenty of games where you can achieve just that without having to bother with EvE and its player vs. player aspect. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/220 "2020-12-22T01:08:38Z")
Like many other noble ideas, it would be farmed, abused or used to advance bots. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/221 "2020-12-22T01:17:13Z")
wow social justice destiny makes me want to go virtue signaling on twitter so wholesome ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 1:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/222 "2020-12-22T01:19:38Z")
Pal, we’re just getting started. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/f/f/ffa48fcac28bb9e61f9561298fd9b35dca5fe6c9.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Ashreya\_Faraday](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ashreya_faraday/32/220029_2.png) [@Ashreya\_Faraday](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ashreya_Faraday)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/223 "2020-12-22T08:32:16Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > (And please let’s dispense with all the “Yeah but as a 10-year vet I can recover from those losses in 2 hours even on a new char, so there!” bullshazz. Totally agree! These 10-year vets playing new chars _still have that 10 years of game experience the NEW players don’t have_. This is what some vets seem to conveniently forget. New players are exactly that - NEW. Vets playing new chars still have the knowledge of how to do things, how to make ISK etc., and can most likely transfer ISK and items from one char/account to their new one, not to mention they may well be in an established player corp that can help them out if necessary. It’s something that does bug me when some vets take this attitude. Thank you to those who don’t and do try to help/advise new players. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/224 "2020-12-22T08:36:42Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > The one exception that comes to mind is the market PvP Just because it’s the only one that comes to your mind does not mean it’s the only one that comes to other people mind. Your opinion of what is fun or not in Eve, is not the definition of what is fun or not. It’s just, like, your opinion, and pushing it onto other people is just arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 9:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/225 "2020-12-22T09:03:37Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > But the game as a whole is designed to be fun. The fact that necessary mecahnics aren’t fun is a flaw in the design We’ve been through this before on multiple occasions. I could be wrong, but I do believe the concept of EvE was to have fun PvP’ing. The rest just revolves around it to enable the central PvP activity. That does NOT mean players solely engaging in the non-PvP activities are less important or “elite” or w/e. The game DOES allow them to play that way and specialize. There’s no discussion about the importance of their role in the game as a whole, even when they choose not to participate in pvp itself in any combative way. They are needed, period. However, I also believe the pve elements should be just “boring” enough to remind non-pvp’ers that there is a whole universe out there with a very different core activity, namely player combat. And hisec gankers, if we stretch that logic a bit further, serve a similar purpose. The fact that all PvE is a grind, which most of us will not associate with fun, always points in the same direction: **Thy purpose, capsuleer, is to go blow stuff up**. PvP, apart from sov warfare is never a grind, but always surprising and new in every encounter. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > it’s simply to give newer players access to more gameplay with less grinding and to encourage more risk taking An important factor is getting acquainted with the value of ISK. Don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose, etc. If you can’t make 10M a day you are doing it very very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 9:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/226 "2020-12-22T09:06:34Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Your opinion of what is fun or not in Eve, is not the definition of what is fun or not. It’s just, like, your opinion, and pushing it onto other people is just arrogance. You feel pushed in any way ? So sorry, Anderson, that me writing out my opinion feels like a threat to you. If you want opinionless forums you’re clearly in the wrong place and for the wrong purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/228 "2020-12-22T09:31:52Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure, but brand new players can’t afford to lose anything. And yes, that’s the point. It’s a laughably small number to any veteran by design, since the idea is that the primary purpose is to ensure that everyone has access to a small amount of ISK to allow them to buy reaplcement ships and encourage them to try more dangerous things. Being active on the Rookie Help I can assure you that it is far more rewarding for a brand new player to be shown HOW to get out of a mess - after losing everything - than to be given ISK or ship replacement. Most of them don’t want the ISK, they want the knowledge. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If you mean combat then yes, you are wrong I had a premonition. That’s the eternal point of contention, isn’t it. Very simply put, you can’t have a game with a player driven economy without wealth creation and destruction. In any case, the point is not even important. The game is designed around a player driven economy, which needs both the destruction and the creation to remain stable. The hoarding of ISK, without enough destruction, enabled by design decisions and an underestimate of player behavior is the reason we’re in this “Famine”. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If it’s just there as a means to an end and is deliberatly boring then why have it? (1) Obviously because the “end” (creation) needs the “means” but also (2) to prevent the situation from spinning completely out of control, and having pve people having only their kind of fun while undermining the entire economy of the game without any sufficient destruction to counter the wealth creation and all the problems it has led to. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Combat is just one of the core mechanics of the game Almost overlooked this one. Combat is not a mechanic, it’s an activity, by players 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ashreya\_Faraday](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ashreya_faraday/32/220029_2.png) [@Ashreya\_Faraday](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ashreya_Faraday)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 9:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/229 "2020-12-22T09:42:05Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > EVE is not a game that’s _supposed_ to be fun. If you only ever play games for “fun”, then that’s just sad. OMG… ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 9:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731/230 "2020-12-22T09:46:22Z")
Trust Sol to kick the beehive and have a deeper discussion 😁 [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731.md?page=11)