# \[Excubitoris Chapter\] God Does Not Forgive: A Rejection of the Recent Concept of Forgivable Generational Inherited Sin **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550 "2019-11-24T22:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sister_mercy_khema/32/172377_2.png) [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sister_Mercy_Khema)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/81 "2019-11-29T16:15:21Z")
I am disheartened to see someone in such a lofty position make statements that are so wrong. Of course God forgives. In our fallen state, out of unity with God, we live in a world of sin. Everyone sins. The very symbol of our Empire proclaims this. If God did not forgive, we should give up now, because we will never meet His standard. Additionally as Saint Jamyl said when she still walked among us: > “Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation.” -Empress Jamyl I Are you saying that Saint Jamyl is wrong? Sister Mercy Khema, Order of Saint Jamyl. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/82 "2019-11-29T16:17:41Z")
> [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](#): > > If God did not forgive, we should give up now, because we will never meet His standard. This is hardly reason to give up. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/83 "2019-11-29T17:09:30Z")
> [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](#): > > Are you saying that Saint Jamyl is wrong? Are _you_ saying Jamyl is God? The original very clearly said the _Empress_ may have mercy… ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sister_mercy_khema/32/172377_2.png) [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sister_Mercy_Khema)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/84 "2019-11-29T17:18:41Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > God does not forgive. Those who have committed offenses against God are damned, pure and simply. There is no salvation. If God has granted the authority to forgive and provide Salvation to the Empress, then God does forgive. It matters not if that forgiveness is through a vicar, it is still God’s authority being exercised. Salvation is not a temporal stay of punishment, but divine grace. Saint Jamyl’s words are very clear. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/85 "2019-11-29T17:22:44Z")
> [@](#): > > “The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited. > Be Careful. Pure Thought is the Instigator of Sin. > Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder. > Be Respectful. Uniform Thought is the Way of Life. > The Mercy of our Emperor is Limitless. His Rule is Benign and Righteous. His Love is Perpetual.” _- The Scriptures, Book I, The Code of Demeanor_ Empress Jamyl I, peace be upon her, was displaying that limitless mercy mentioned in the Code of Demeanor. We are all indeed flawed sinners, but that is exactly why we need God to attain Salvation. He grants us mercy and cleanses our soul not because He _forgives_ us, but because He _loves_ us and wants those of us who truly accept His Love. There can be mercy and Salvation without forgiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sister_mercy_khema/32/172377_2.png) [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sister_Mercy_Khema)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/86 "2019-11-29T17:34:29Z")
Aside from the fact that the Prophet Kuria specifically say that one can repent and pray for forgiveness, this sort of contortion where God cleanses us of our sins without forgiveness seems to be a great contortion to get to a point where forgiveness isn’t necessary. However, that cleansing, the act in itself _is_ forgiveness. Mercy and cleansing of one’s soul is divine forgiveness. Another point I wish to make is that one can forgive, but still insist on a punishment. To forgive is not to forget. To forgive is not to excuse. To forgive is not to pardon. They are separate acts. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/87 "2019-11-29T17:36:12Z")
> [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](#): > > Aside from the fact that the Prophet Kuria specifically say that one can repent and pray for forgiveness The whole point of that bit of Scripture is that praying for forgiveness isn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sister_mercy_khema/32/172377_2.png) [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sister_Mercy_Khema)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/88 "2019-11-29T17:38:03Z")
Correct, beliefs and deeds are needed. However, I wanted to hew close to the topic of forgiveness specifically. Asking for forgiveness without making any attempt to show one’s worthiness is doomed to failure. God’s tolerance _is_ limited. It is because of that, we Amarr strive to serve Him in a way that pleases Him. Analogies are crude, but I will use one here: Salvation could be compared to a path up a mountain, a path that is impossible for us to make on our own. However, we must continue to walk that path, to keep trying to make it up the mountain. Sin could be likened to stumbling, or slowing. As long as we pick ourselves up to continue to walk up the path, our sins can be forgiven and cleansed. To stop walking, or to turn away from the path is the apostasy that the Scriptures speak of as being the gravest sin. To not be on that path would be outside of God’s tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/89 "2019-11-29T17:43:11Z")
> [@](#): > > One can repent and pray for forgiveness. > But true meekness is one that has penetrated and laid its roots in the very heart of a man. > The stars above will not weep for us parting. > The air we breathe won’t notice our disappearance. > The dirt of the earth will embrace our decadence. Only in God can we thrive and grow. > Only in God." _Prophet Kruia._ One can repent and ask for forgiveness, but as said in the direct next line, that’s not true meekness. Cleansing our souls isn’t forgiving us. I, like everyone else, have sinned. I am a sinner. But as I believe in God and accept His Love, He will, though His Mercy, allow me Salvation. That doesn’t mean I’ll be suddenly _not_ a sinner. Though this life and the next, I’ll have to accept my imperfection. God does not tolerate sin. He will not _forgive_ me for sinning. He’ll just exercise His Love to Save me from my own failures despite the fact that I’m _entirely_ undeserving. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sister_mercy_khema/32/172377_2.png) [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sister_Mercy_Khema)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/90 "2019-11-29T17:56:49Z")
Then I ask a simple question of you: What is forgiveness? > [@Arsia\_Elkin](#): > > He’ll just exercise His Love to Save me from my own failures despite the fact that I’m _entirely_ undeserving. How is this act not forgiveness? I would call forgiveness the refusal to take revenge for insults. Every sin, great or small is an insult against God. As we’ve already established, His Wrath is Immense. As you have stated, accurately, everyone has sinned. We are all sinners. Has God taken revenge against you for your insults against Him? Will He? Since you clearly believe in His Mercy and Salvation, then I suspect you believe you will not be subjected to His Immense Wrath. If you think forgiveness is something else, Ms. Arsia Elkin, then I would encourage you to explain just what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/91 "2019-11-29T18:01:46Z")
Let’s assume for a moment that somebody whom I loved wronged me. Now let’s also assume that I was throwing a party (and I’m not comparing the afterlife to a party). I can let them attend because of that love that I still fell despite having been wronged and _still_ be angry at them. I can let them into the party _without_ forgiving them. I can give them dinner _without_ forgiving them. God can give us Salvation _without_ forgiving us. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/92 "2019-11-29T18:06:50Z")
> [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](#): > > then I suspect you believe you will not be subjected to His Immense Wrath. Actually, I very well might be. It’ll be a blessing that I’m undeserving of if I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sister_mercy_khema/32/172377_2.png) [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sister_Mercy_Khema)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/93 "2019-11-29T18:20:15Z")
You believe forgiveness to about anger or some other resentment. I see your confusion. I would not use forgiveness in that way when speaking about God and Sin. I know the Order of Jamyl does not use forgiveness in that way. Forgiveness is God withholding His Wrath when He has every justification not to. That wrath would be damnation for our sins against Him. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/94 "2019-11-29T18:24:30Z")
> [@Sister\_Mercy\_Khema](#): > > Forgiveness is God withholding His Wrath when He has every justification not to. I would call that _Mercy_, which I do believe He gives. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/95 "2019-11-29T23:11:24Z")
It is worth noting that the responses in the exchange here seem to be conflating all human imperfections and failings into the same category as rejecting God. Human Folly can be cleansed, but God-Rejecting Blasphemy, Heresy, or Apostasy are entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/96 "2019-11-29T23:24:14Z")
One can receive His Mercy for other failings _specifically because_ they accept God and His Love. Rejecting God means you reject His Mercy. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/97 "2019-11-29T23:29:19Z")
So, given the length of time the Ealur have been enslaved compared to Ni-Kunni, some Minmatar, or not at all in the case of Khanid or Ammatar should manumission from slavery be considered not as an act of forgiveness but rather as the consideration of a slave to uphold the divine order of the Empire willingly and ably? ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/98 "2019-11-29T23:31:53Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > should manumission from slavery be considered not as an act of forgiveness but rather as the consideration of a slave to uphold the divine order of the Empire willingly and ably? Most slaves already do. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/99 "2019-11-29T23:41:02Z")
Samira is correct here. Most slaves already do that. I do not see manumission as an act of forgiveness, but as one of recognition and promotion of capability of someone who has already been living faithfully. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550/100 "2019-11-29T23:53:22Z")
Then I think Amarr slavery as an institution designed to inculcate certain beliefs and values in service to God and Empire is more honest and less cruel than offering a path to personal salvation a slave may never realise in their lifetime. Which I suppose is the core of the salvific heteredoxy – is it even in the temporal domain such as with Holders to offer the indulgence of salvation to slaves or is that God’s sole remit? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550.md?page=6)