# First CSM Summit Meeting Minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** devblog, csm\ **Created:** [September 27, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645 "2019-09-27T11:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/282 "2019-10-02T20:58:44Z")
> [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > I can’t answer that, as A, I don’t know, and B, I doubt ccp would let me if I did, as it’s commercially sensitive data. No, not bingo. TRINGO! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/283 "2019-10-02T20:59:57Z")
My answer was pretty obvious really. But so was your question, because you knew what the only answer I had was. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/284 "2019-10-02T21:00:13Z")
Well they need good feedback loop introduced and wheels will spin themselves. What should be the casus belli? Power and resources. In terms of power it is ability to field supers fleet. In terms of resources, depletable ore belts and combat anoms. How to stop the supers proliferation? Make a hard cap dependable of how many systems/upkeep corporation has. It would be a reason to go to war to increase the cap for fielding more supers. So imperium for example would still own 10k supers if they want but they need to control large portion of NS system and pay accordingly upkeep. Depletable resources may cause incentive to raid neighbours in order to gather needed ores or just gain ISK. Capital. The farther the systems are from capital the worse communication they have with it. So if for example Imperium wanted to control all of NS the farthest system from capital may suffer effects similar to BO. It would create threshold where the last part of conquer would require more effort than the start. Weather effects. Short, 30 minutes surges of power. Something like electromagentic flashes that cause some sort of capacitor malfunctions or effects similar to ewar. Maybe local BO. Unpredictable and constellation wide. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/285 "2019-10-02T21:01:10Z")
> [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > Hell to the hell no to encourage those idiots. There are other things for them to do than screw around with null sec operations and the gaming time of countless of pilots…But HELL NO TO SCREWING WITH LOCAL AND SCREWING WITH NULL SEC OPS!!! Insane idea, you are damn right and heads should roll for this bs. We had a very long time to mine and rat with impunity - they were trying to make space more dangerous. That’s not a bad idea or a bad goal. It just didn’t work the way they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/286 "2019-10-02T21:01:47Z")
Sorry Steve, I just couldn’t resist. I’ll be careful for ever until next time, I promise. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/287 "2019-10-02T21:02:20Z")
Well since the CCP numbnuts dont bother reading or responding, could you pass that request up the chain? Now that we have some type of stats for June, lets see July, August and September and then we can talk actual stats… My personal feeling is that those stats Larrikin shared would be down across the board, not just in null sec. And the numbers did not just go down, but crashed… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/288 "2019-10-02T21:03:00Z")
Bear in mind that it’s all percentages. So they can’t _all_ be down. It’s percentage of players who connect. ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/289 "2019-10-02T21:04:29Z")
Which stats got completed screwed by their “genius idea” of pushing SP promotions in the middle of it all ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/290 "2019-10-02T21:06:35Z")
A tip which may help to understand CCP. CCP doesn’t do things. Various teams within CCP do things. Development teams (multiple). Sales. Marketing. With different goals. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/291 "2019-10-02T21:08:08Z")
> [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > Which stats got completed screwed by their “genius idea” of pushing SP promotions in the middle of it all Arrendis gave an ample scope on the mix of bruhaha that combined simultaneously so bad, that now whatever data is corrupted to a point that it’s pretty much impossible to determine what effect any specific did. > [@Arrendis](#): > > By all accounts, Olmeca’s a hard worker who, with a strong background in academics, likes to work off of data gathered via strictly controlled, well-understood processes without a lot of pollution and intentional skewing and poisoning, in order to draw solid conclusions and then proceed with an informed hypothesis. In other words, 10 of him will swiftly result in absolutely nothing being accomplished, ever, because the one thing CCP _never_ does is gather data without polluting it by changing half a dozen different things, introducing new background conditions, and basically making sure even they can’t untangle exactly what change had which effect. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/292 "2019-10-02T21:09:49Z")
> [@Xucca](#): > > Local is not the perfect intel tool. It could be when what’s incoming has the intention of gaining from it, as who ever comes in also knows who’s there and since his intentions are already playing, he has the advantage. It’s a “perfect” tool because it tells you, every single time, who is in the system with you. There is nothing else in the game - not dscan, not being on grid, nothing - that provides you with that information and that’s pretty important information to have. > [@Xucca](#): > > The group size is irrelevant to the wrong appreciation of local as perfect intel tool. Group size and organization means you’ve got many people in many areas who are all feeding into corp and alliance intel channels, and that means there’s multiple opportunities to catch neuts entering your space and provide that information to people so they can take preventive action, like docking things up. The bigger the group, the more eyes in space, the more intel in the intel channels, the farther out you can catch roaming gangs and wormhole crews. > [@Xucca](#): > > Bots must be attended directly on the accounts at fault. Applying a generic, indiscriminately spread punishment is way, way worse than whatever fault a bothandler fell into, because all the rest are innocent. I’m not going to argue that this wasn’t a sledgehammer approach to bots instead of a scalpel, but nobody can argue that botting significantly dropped off in a variety of regions during the blackout. The data is there and it’s obvious. > [@Xucca](#): > > I can hardly see BO as anything to do in terms of “desire to change things for folks who believed they’d slved the game in nullsec” when considering whatever built in NS is according to established rules and mechanics. At minimum, it’s a contradiction. When we’ve figured out the meta, they changed the meta and then it takes time to figure out the new one. That’s what I mean by the desire to change things for folks who solved nullsec. Blackout did change behavior - super and capital ratting stopped, folks stopped using excavator drones, etc. So that’s a meta change and that’s what they wanted. > [@Xucca](#): > > BO did not hit any points. It stopped all points for everyone. It did what CCP wanted it to do, as I noted before. The problem is that it also caused large numbers of players to log off, some permanently, and that was bad. That’s why it was a mistake, and why I expect they won’t do it again unless they make significant changes. > [@Xucca](#): > > It has nothing to do with liking it or not. As I just explained, there can be points of view, which can be biased or at least tendentious and there are facts, which are irrefutable. > Being reasonable is quite an invitation, please do. You’re mistaking your opinion for facts. Don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/293 "2019-10-02T21:11:09Z")
Better ways to make null dangerous than screw with local. I have no issues with changes and challenges that make sense, but when your change screws people over…I have a problem, a huge problem. As I wrote above, you and I will have to agree to disagree on the BO, but one thing remains, they screwed big time and need to pray that we regain our footing after this mess. And CSM needs to step up and pound the table on behalf of the players. ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/294 "2019-10-02T21:14:43Z")
The only behavior it changed is people logging off…If that is the behavior you, CCP and other numbnuts wanted, that is what you got. As far as intel tools and local, you dont like local and intel tools, dont use them, but you and CCP have no business on imposing this on players. CCP better take a look in the mirror instead of looking at their asses. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/295 "2019-10-02T21:14:48Z")
> [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > Better ways to make null dangerous than screw with local. I have no issues with changes and challenges that make sense, but when your change screws people over…I have a problem, a huge problem. Every change is going to screw somebody over. There was somebody doing it the old way and now you’ve forced them to change. The question is whether the impact is worth the benefit. Some folks will take it on the chin - like the old war dec groups did - but if the overall impact is better for more players, then they’ve done what they wanted to do. > [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > And CSM needs to step up and pound the table on behalf of the players. As far as I can tell, they’re doing that. But at the same time, if what the players want is bad for the game, I think we should hope that they’re also pounding the table and telling CCP to not give in. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/296 "2019-10-02T21:15:12Z")
> [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > The only behavior it changed is people logging off…If that is the behavior you, CCP and other numbnuts wanted, that is what you got. I guess you’re not going to be voting for me next year, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/297 "2019-10-02T21:17:51Z")
Which does make sense. But all teams go under the tag of CCP and they should have devs assigned to post useful information on here. Reddit is all fine and good, but last I checked, these are the game official forums, not reddit. With that said, I do thank you for posting the info on here. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/298 "2019-10-02T21:29:58Z")
> [@Kaylee\_Rayl](#): > > I’m more like the type to see what actions people do rather than live on what they say. Well, in the case of the CSM, all you’ll ever have is what CCP say. The CSM can’t tell you what things they’ve actually stopped CCP from screwing up horribly, or even what things they’ve advocated for. So you won’t know what they _do_. > [@Kaylee\_Rayl](#): > > I meant that CSM control what the people are posting on the forum They don’t. At all. > [@Xucca](#): > > I think Arrendis was trying to say that this is not “this newer version of CCP”. Indeed. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Blackout hit all of those points. It helped fix the isk faucet issue, which had been out of control for years. No, it didn’t. It just suppressed the faucet by driving people out of the game. That’s not fixing the faucet, that’s turning the water off where it comes into the house, man. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > But the folks who are now screaming with 20/20 hindsight about obviously horrible it was and everybody should have known it aren’t being fair or reasonable. > [@](#): > > So once again, we’ll see the way everything works out as more than the sum of its parts. Individuals will be pushed toward getting smarter about their money-making, and big groups do better than small groups in terms of providing security and opportunity. People who don’t adapt will leave—some will leave null, while others leave EVE. And though there’s already a chorus forming of ‘good riddance’, it’s no secret that fewer people in the game means fewer people in space. It’s the entire reason CCP introduced Alpha clones. > > Taken together, it all makes joining the large blocs even more attractive for people who want to amass money, even if their eventual goal is founding their own alliance. In the long run, the blocs weather the storm much better than the little guys, and they’ll be better positioned to teach newer players how to survive in the no-local meta. > > Will this happen before CCP decides they have all the data they need? Will they decide to turn Local back to ‘Immediate’ mode? Who knows? But it will happen. And when it does, the hunters, who are talking about flocking back in droves, will start to complain about null being ‘too safe’ again. We’ll hear more crying about ‘blue donuts’ and ‘risk-averse’ people from PvPers who themselves take every precaution to not get blown up pointlessly. > > And in the end? We’ll be right back where we are now. Yup. Totally not being fair _or_ reasonable to point out that 3 days into the Blackout, it was already being called. Hell… > [@Local Comms Blackout - Discussion Thread](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread/171935/111): > > First week : A lot of people will be happy to kill people don’t understand what happen. > After 2 month : Only umbrella survive, and you looze a lot of player. Hunter will cry after cyno beacause they will not have other target up. > > Remimber this nerf hurt more little entity and newbro than old player in big entity. That was a full week _before_ the Blackout. Honestly, Brisc, this is not brain surgery. This is _how people behave_. Think about what you do for a living. If you had to tell people ‘ok, look, the government knows there’s a contract here, but they need to roll all this stuff back in order to see if something is going to work, and they’re not going to compensate you in any way for it’, the response would be ‘pound sand, we’ve got a gorram contract’. People react _badly_ to having things disrupted and taken away without any compensation. You know that. To say that people are ‘screaming with hindsight’ how obviously horrible it was ignores the fact that no, a lot of the ‘here is how this plays out’ happened _early_. > [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > CCP Quant said roughly 3-4 years ago that around 75 % of the active players were in HS; those numbers may have changed, but no where to the point of saying NS has the highest population. Unfortunately, CCP’s revelations in these latest minutes indicate that their metrics for ‘who is where’ are so horribly off, they’ve got the 3 Goonswarm CSMs pegged as ‘highsec’. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/299 "2019-10-02T21:32:06Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > It’s a “perfect” tool because it tells you, every single time, who is in the system with you. There is nothing else in the game - not dscan, not being on grid, nothing - that provides you with that information and that’s pretty important information to have It’s still a detection after the moment the incoming entity decided to be a threat. That’s a fact. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Group size and organization means you’ve got many people in many areas who are all feeding into corp and alliance intel channels, and that means there’s multiple opportunities to catch neuts entering your space and provide that information to people so they can take preventive action, like docking things up. The bigger the group, the more eyes in space, the more intel in the intel channels, the farther out you can catch roaming gangs and wormhole crews. Still, something happened before detection. The moment you make the decision to be a threat is undetectable. your presence is but it says nothing about you, not yet. But as an incoming threat, you already know what is going on in there, therefore, the detection instant is irrelevant. It’s a threat and whichever action as evasive or confrontative that could be, is an unpredictable decission, making it non-existing at that instant. Also a fact. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > botting significantly dropped Undeniable that when everything drops, botting too. CCP stated bots adapted right away. Fact number three. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > When we’ve figured out the meta, they changed the meta and then it takes time to figure out the new one. This is different. If by meta you mean the personal decision to fulfill a career or gamestyle, then one disappeared to give room for another yet unknown, by force. I don’t dispute that. All I say is that everything was built in Null under specific rules _and by specific careers_ proposed by the game itself. Acting against it is at least contradictory. And that’s a fact. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > It did what CCP wanted it to do, as I noted before. You don’t know that. The intention behind BO is still blurred. Let’s wait and see. I suspect it was a tryout of an environmental alteration, nothing more. It might be that it went out of hand but that’s irrelevant. I have no opinion, unless specified. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/300 "2019-10-02T21:39:26Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > No, it didn’t. It just suppressed the faucet by driving people out of the game. That’s not fixing the faucet, that’s turning the water off where it comes into the house, man. It didn’t just drive people out of the game. It changed behavior - guys who were super ratting before docked the supers up and got into Rattlesnakes. Yes, some quit. But hey - fixing the problem of the faucets producing too much isk by shutting off the water is a legit strategy, isn’t it? Again, I’m not arguing that blackout was good - I think we all know it was bad - I am simply saying that it wasn’t an insane idea to try. ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/301 "2019-10-02T21:41:00Z")
It was an insane idea without the counter measures. I mean they did announce intel towers. Had they released intel towers first, maybe we could have worked with it… And they have a test server for a reason, to test things. They better test things out there than play God on live server [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645.md?page=14) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645.md?page=16)