# First CSM Summit Meeting Minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** devblog, csm\ **Created:** [September 27, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645 "2019-09-27T11:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/21 "2019-09-27T17:18:23Z")
> [@Pol\_Macsliebh](#): > > Null Sec mentioned 34 times, Low Sec, High Sec and Factional warfare not mentioned at all. Good Job! > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > I am concerned that everything is about null-sec though. There’s a lot of reasons for CCP to focus for the moment on breaking up the stagnation in null. They definitely should be focused wider, though. For my money, though, _this_ is one of the most worrisome bits: > [@](#): > > CSM does ask where in this vision for a tutorial they would expect the players to interact with others and maybe join corporations. CCP Burger says that there is a balance for this, some players will just want to loiter around in highsec and take their time, whereas others will dive right into nullsec from minute one. To me, this reads like CCP imagines Highsec is basically all loners and solo players, and that if you want players interacting with one another, you have to go to nullsec. And that is very much _not_ the case, nor should CCP be thinking of things in those terms. If they adopt a position (as they **appear** to here) that people on their own go out into null, then they’re perpetuating the current power structure by aiming people toward existing corps/alliances in null. **Groups** need to be able to form in highsec, get their wheels running in low, and them make a move to break into null _as a group_. And that exchange right there makes we wonder if CCP even knows that social players exist in HS at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/22 "2019-09-27T17:38:43Z")
Please define terms not in the Lexicon - Zerg’, ‘RTS Turtle’. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/23 "2019-09-27T17:42:34Z")
It is, however, a point. You can’t demand people join a PC run group as part of the NPE. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/24 "2019-09-27T17:45:02Z")
Zerg: short for zerg rush, from Starcraft. Where you use waves of cheap troops to wear down a qualitatively better, but numerically weaker force… RTS Turtle: breaks down into two parts: RTS: Real Time Strategy. When people are playing at a level above actually flying, directing other groups Turtling: When you pull in your side, and go defensive. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/25 "2019-09-27T18:03:08Z")
> [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > It is, however, a point. You can’t demand people join a PC run group as part of the NPE. No, you can’t. But ‘loitering around in highsec’ isn’t _just_ the NPE, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Hortgar\_Frost](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hortgar_frost/32/187451_2.png) [@Hortgar\_Frost](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hortgar_Frost)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/26 "2019-09-27T18:03:20Z")
Omg… they just talk about making things squishier… structures, ships… giving more connections to wormholes… etc. All the talk was about ‘how we can make life harder’. #( ---
**Author:** ![Gneeznow](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gneeznow/32/138237_2.png) [@Gneeznow](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gneeznow)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/27 "2019-09-27T18:05:44Z")
If only CCP put as much effort into making actual changes to the game as they did when publishing long .pdfs and having conferences with their lobbyist pals ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/28 "2019-09-27T18:29:40Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > **Groups** need to be able to form in highsec, get their wheels running in low, and them make a move to break into null _as a group_ . > > And that exchange right there makes we wonder if CCP even knows that social players exist in HS at all. Agreed. If players aren’t forming groups before they head out to null, their only option is to join the already established big groups. There isn’t much reason to join groups in hi-sec however. There isn’t a rich amount of group content there. There’s mining…and lots of it (and lets be fair, its alot of multi-boxing). But what if you’re not a miner ? There’s invasions/incursions/themepark, but how often do these players break through the hi-sec ‘ceiling’? And there’s wardecs, which suffers a similar fate to null. Either join PIRAT or gtfo. The other issue is corporation spam. Finding a corp involves going through a lot of tripe before finding a good group of folks. ---
**Author:** ![Mina\_Sebiestar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mina_sebiestar/32/502522_2.png) [@Mina\_Sebiestar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mina_Sebiestar)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/29 "2019-09-27T19:09:34Z")
Something something…null sec minutes of my life wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/30 "2019-09-27T19:16:41Z")
Horrible read, my hope for EvE‘s future got a big hit … ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Lord\_Trump](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dark_lord_trump/32/411482_2.png) [@Dark\_Lord\_Trump](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dark_Lord_Trump)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/31 "2019-09-27T20:04:32Z")
I noticed that Olmeca asked if there was a way to create a sink for people ratting. I’m going to shamelessly plug my idea here [Fighting inflation: Missions for everyone!](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/fighting-inflation-missions-for-everyone/170459/) as something that might interest those like-minded. It wouldn’t have to be implemented this way, but I think that having some of the bounty drop as LP could help, similarly to an ESS but mandatory and not rob-able. ---
**Author:** ![Eivar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eivar/32/178879_2.png) [@Eivar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eivar)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/32 "2019-09-27T20:09:26Z")
Things CCP appears to be good at: - Reporting things – because transparency is all in how one spins the message. Things CCP appears to not be good at: - Understanding their customers – we’re tired of reports, we need action. - Not inspissating forum material – much of what I read from the minutes is already in the forums. - PPT for the future – seriously, only 20% of effort toward veteran stagnation? Things I suggest even though you didn’t fly me to Reykjavik: The more veteran stagnation is addressed, the more grass-roots acquisition occurs. This doesn’t even come up as an argument from the CSM who are veteran players. Did they roll over because the PPT was pretty? “Human interaction in the early moments is a hugely important factor in retention.” - You have to be hearing some of the chat in newbie corps. Combative, racist, inflammatory, often punctuated by slander against proposed newbie ship fittings or the person(s) proposing them. If this fits with your ideal for either “human interaction” or “retention” of new players, or heck…illustrates the type of player you want to retain…then tl;dr here. Otherwise, newbie corp chats need sharp and concise rules. Don’t ban the player, ban the chat. They can be as off-putting as they like when they get to their corps. On the topic of VNI, blackout and chaos: “CCP Larrikin says that this information will be made available to them later down the line.” - You FLEW them to REYJKAVIK and you couldn’t even give them estimates of what many of us want to know? Do you need to, y’know, synopsis it? “Merkelchen asks what measurements does CCP use reliably categorize players as pilots living in highsec, nullsec, etc. CCP Larrikin clarifies that it is based on where they spend most of their active time in the game. This confirms that Aryth, Merkelchen, and Innominate are all highsec pubbies.” - LULZ! “CCP Burger then brings up a discussion from another session where they would consider the handoff point from CCP to a player group…” “Merkelchen also suggests that they need to use the data on players to determine who is likely to leave and find a suitable way to assist them.” - Honestly, CCP, it’s 2019 and you’re admitting you don’t already… /facepalm On Aryth’s suggestion that newbie scammers are banned for 30 days: “CCP Fozzie says this is a decision for another department.” - They were getting their hair cut during the entire CSM Summit? “CCP Muppet Hunter says that CCP is moving towards supporting different playstyles better, but this will take time. Innominate says that just any action is needed right now. Olmeca Gold says that CCP needs to act sooner rather than later before it’s too late. Vily says that the bigger issue that they are hitting on here is that there is no hope and with no hope, roadmap or sign of a plan then people will just give up and leave.” - This made me feel better about the CSM, even though I don’t care much for any CSM system in any game. Way to go, gentlemen! Not just for me but for all the stagnating veterans who really, really want a solid reason to remain in EVE. ---
**Author:** ![Xelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xelios/32/192236_2.png) [@Xelios](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xelios)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/33 "2019-09-27T20:14:52Z")
Big shout out to those 20% responsible for fixing 3 years worth of balance neglect, tiericide, shield slaves, timezone tanking, rorqual mining, supercap umbrellas, bomber gangs, FAX, stagnation in null and rampant botting. Big up yourselves👏 ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/34 "2019-09-27T20:33:11Z")
Still no WIS, how players will want to stay and play their character if they cant even see it in a personal space, doing personal things like boarding spaceship or walking down the corridor to meet other players in a bar and have a friendly chat? ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Rollin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/abe_rollin/32/272864_2.png) [@Abe\_Rollin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Abe_Rollin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/35 "2019-09-27T20:41:55Z")
“ExookiZsays that while he does not have any data to back it up he is convinced that wormholes are the safest space in EVE” He’s some data for you …we were running C3 sites in the “safest” space in eve had eyes on the only wormhole into the system and was jumped by a gang before the wormhole they came through even showed on system scan, we lost 2 Nestors & a Tengu - Just some of the 12% of all ships killed in Eve by only 7% of the population. … Safe my a\*\*… even if you roll a wormhole shut & “pull up the draw bridge” wormholes still spawn and it’s not like null where the enemies instantly show in local. ---
**Author:** ![Unseen\_Spectre](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/unseen_spectre/32/440368_2.png) [@Unseen\_Spectre](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Unseen_Spectre)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/36 "2019-09-27T20:59:38Z")
@CCP_Dopamine @Steve_Ronuken Any chance we are getting an iteration on or some feedback about the current state of the ECM change from Oct/Nov last year? It has been almost a year since CCP Rise made the presentation of the ECM change at EVE Vegas last year. At that same presentation he said that CCP wanted to follow the development closely and iterate on ECM continuously. However, this really never happened! Besides the changes to the ECM ships in Nov 2018 (which from the original devblog originally seemed to have been planned for Oct 2018), we have heard nothing from CCP about this – total blackout! (not counting the ECM drone nerf). Therefore, it would be nice to know when we can expect to get some information about/iteration on the ECM change. Unfortunately, currently CCP seem to have left ECM in the gutter. ---
**Author:** ![Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/circumstantial_evidence/32/399551_2.png) [@Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Circumstantial_Evidence)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/37 "2019-09-27T21:07:24Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Still no WIS, how players will want to stay and play their character if they cant even see it in a personal space, doing personal things like boarding spaceship or walking down the corridor to meet other players in a bar and have a friendly chat? While “that’s nice” and I’d like to see it if it were free, some feel character gameplay in EVE would remove pilots from space. _“I can’t join the fleet fight right now because \_\_\_.”_ > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Must I remind Hilmar again that climbing Olympus Mons is nothing like he thinks it is like? He is speaking in general about trying to set up new challenges for veteran players - _ **like** _ “a Mount Olympus” - not referring to any specific mountain with that name 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/38 "2019-09-27T21:13:07Z")
CSM NS members wants nullification removed, not biased at all…I stopped reading after that. This house is buring and CSM adding fuel to the fire. Wake up CCP, this game is not all about Null sec. Why everybody keep strugling with NPE when it is obvious what is wrong. You made pretty advertising intros to the game and when new players log in, they see nothing above at all. Spreadsheet in space. UI was not touch in years and I’m not saying change icons from colored to grey. Second thing: EvE is sandbox, you can’t hold players by a hand here because nothing good will come from it (you had perfect example with blackout and NS players, where HTFU went?). ---
**Author:** ![Amanda\_Orion](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amanda_orion/32/140284_2.png) [@Amanda\_Orion](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amanda_Orion)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/39 "2019-09-27T21:55:40Z")
You don’t know how to control your hole… ---
**Author:** ![Amanda\_Orion](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amanda_orion/32/140284_2.png) [@Amanda\_Orion](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amanda_Orion)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/40 "2019-09-27T22:06:27Z")
Aryth brings up some concerns about the DAU for the last year has been very low. CCP Orca clarifies that the MAU is, on the contrary, the highest. This is a concern for CCP as the retention of new players being bad is a cause of this discrepancy. CCP Orca also mentions that a lot of changes have been made that resulted in improvements across the board in the funnel for a new player registering and getting into the game, one example of this was fixing the download on-demand system which resulted in a 5% increase alone. This is the biggest load of bollocks I have EVER seen. I watched the figures on eve-offline, and 13k is the lowest 36 hour average i have EVER seen. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645.md?page=3)