# First CSM Summit Meeting Minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** devblog, csm\ **Created:** [September 27, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645 "2019-09-27T11:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/403 "2019-10-04T22:12:24Z")
> [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > If you owed me a beer for each time a developer asked us to “throw him ideas to fix problem X” you’d owe me lots of beers That’s their way of getting you to do something to shut you up. I’ve told you this before but you keep thinking every creative brush off they use on you is somehow a compliment. > [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > They come with their favored playstyles and player groups in mind, and that shows during discussions on controversial issues. It’s odd that you say this because I saw first hand a bunch of situations where folks who were there as members of big groups took positions contrary to what was in the best interests of their group but was in the best interests of the game. That’s the point - you have to be able to put your own group’s interests aside or you’re going to do a bad job. > [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > If you admit #1 is true then you can’t deny some people can anticipate/know some issues better than CCP, which is actually why CCP keeps flying expert players all the way to Iceland. They don’t keep doing that. They keep flying people who can get elected to Iceland. You. Didn’t. Win. Because. You’re. An. Expert. Repeat that a few thousand times until it sinks in. ---
**Author:** ![Olmeca\_Gold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/olmeca_gold/32/353637_2.png) [@Olmeca\_Gold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Olmeca_Gold)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/404 "2019-10-04T22:24:13Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > That’s their way of getting you to do something to shut you up. I’ve told you this before but you keep thinking every creative brush off they use on you is somehow a compliment. Yeah your irrationality is now past the engageable threshold so I’ll not try. ---
**Author:** ![Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/circumstantial_evidence/32/399551_2.png) [@Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Circumstantial_Evidence)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/405 "2019-10-04T22:39:14Z")
> CCP Fozzie asks who would want to have asset safety removed in nullsec, people show hands, > > he then asks who of those would do it _ **for the betterment of the game** _ and now there were no hands - Helping Brisc’s point that CSM’s can rise above their personal interests of making lots of explosions. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/406 "2019-10-05T00:59:27Z")
> [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > Yeah your irrationality is now past the engageable threshold so I’ll not try. You keep letting them butter you up and I keep telling you not to listen to it, and you keep doing it. Nothing irrational here - I’m just trying to help you. > [@Circumstantial\_Evidence](#): > > > CCP Fozzie asks who would want to have asset safety removed in nullsec, people show hands, > > > > he then asks who of those would do it _ **for the betterment of the game** _ and now there were no hands > > - Helping Brisc’s point that CSM’s can rise above their personal interests of making lots of explosions. That was a very loaded question asked in a way designed to get that response. Fozzie is well known as being against ever removing asset safety. For the record, I would have raised my hand. ---
**Author:** ![Olmeca\_Gold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/olmeca_gold/32/353637_2.png) [@Olmeca\_Gold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Olmeca_Gold)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/407 "2019-10-05T02:06:55Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You keep letting them butter you up and I keep telling you not to listen to it, and you keep doing it. Nothing irrational here - I’m just trying to help you. How you can infer any specific treatment to me from CCP from what I said beyond me. You’ve got a rich imagination. Meanwhile, all I’m saying is that my experience has been that the first thing the entire CSM often gets asked right after we say ship X is too oppressive in the meta, mechanic Y is unfair, or activity Z is unbalanced; is how we’d fix it. I’m pretty sure lots of implemented ideas can be traced back to a player, some to past CSM, and I’m sure some of what we offered will get implemented at some point. Even if nothing gets implemented, there is value in different ways different solutions gets discussed. I’m pretty sure CCP wouldn’t ask us for that if there wasn’t any value. The actual dumb thing is you thinking they’d somehow attempt to “butter” us. ---
**Author:** ![Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/circumstantial_evidence/32/399551_2.png) [@Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Circumstantial_Evidence)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/408 "2019-10-05T02:11:37Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > That was a very loaded question asked in a way designed to get that response. Fozzie is well known as being against ever removing asset safety. > > For the record, I would have raised my hand. A short term ‘plague of locusts’ followed by… What… improvements to the game would you hope for? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/409 "2019-10-05T02:40:16Z")
> [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > How you can infer any specific treatment to me from CCP from what I said beyond me. You’ve got a rich imagination. I’m a politician. I know every single way you can blow somebody off without looking like a dick. It’s part of the training. > [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > Meanwhile, all I’m saying is that my experience has been that the first thing the entire CSM often gets asked right after we say ship X is too oppressive in the meta, mechanic Y is unfair, or activity Z is unbalanced; is how we’d fix it. I’m pretty sure lots of implemented ideas can be traced back to a player, some to past CSM, and I’m sure some of what we offered will get implemented at some point. Even if nothing gets implemented, there is value in different ways different solutions gets discussed. I’m pretty sure CCP wouldn’t ask us for that if there wasn’t any value. The actual dumb thing is you thinking they’d somehow attempt to “butter” us. Of course they butter you. You don’t think there’s any value in getting you on their side? Come on, man. You can’t be that naive. > [@Circumstantial\_Evidence](#): > > A short term ‘plague of locusts’ followed by… What… improvements to the game would you hope for? I want more things to explode. Eliminating or reducing asset safety provides a monetary reason to go blow things up. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/410 "2019-10-05T03:03:37Z")
> [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > How you can infer any specific treatment to me from CCP from what I said beyond me. You want the answer in it’s really ironic form? > [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > CSM isn’t a workshop or isn’t a business meeting where decisions are being made together. If you ask me, it’s not exactly a focus group either as a focus group implies random sampling of people. > > CSM is a group into which people hopefully choose expert representatives reflecting their Eve balance views and interests. In turn, here is a few things CSM achieves. What you’re describing? It’s _lobbyists_. And Brisc Rubal? > [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > PS: Brisc. You weren’t an expert candidate (at least you didn’t base your campaign on your expertise of a game area). As a professional lobbyist, you have just hit Brisc’s area of expertise. ---
**Author:** ![Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/circumstantial_evidence/32/399551_2.png) [@Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Circumstantial_Evidence)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/411 "2019-10-05T03:34:01Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I want more things to explode. Eliminating or reducing asset safety provides a monetary reason to go blow things up. All we know now is the structure fit; without an expansion of cargo scanners to give some estimate, would players put up with the boredom of randomly selecting / timer-shooting structures in hopes of a big payout? - As soon as asset safety is announced to change, a lot of “surplus” assets will move to NPC stations. _(Querns has wrote that GSF is well-covered for this possible game change, by their choice of Delve, with its NPC stations. Some regions don’t have this advantage. Then again, space is not supposed to be homogeneous and may be getting even less so, over time.)_ - A large number of Astrahus are just used as temporary parking spots, not much in them. - The final timer notice for actively used structures gives players time to move stuff out. - Unless, like for POS’s, the hanger is locked after RF. - It would be better to lock hangers after 2nd RF. Currently, players can move installed clones after first RF, locked out after the second. Players might gamble that they can save the structure. - Because first RF can be performed at any time, the safest thing for users in “hanger locked in first RF” scenario, would be to only store the most essential items in structures. The biggest payout would likely be for structures whose users aren’t active. Hopefully they move their stuff before a period of inactivity, but sometimes this is not voluntary. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 4:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/412 "2019-10-05T04:57:29Z")
> [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > They come with their favored playstyles and player groups in mind, and that shows during discussions on controversial issues. > [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > which is actually why CCP keeps flying expert players all the way to Iceland. WOW do those two comments contradict each other - Experts in a specific area of the game with preconceived ideas does not make them right for the rest of the game. As for flying “experts” to Iceland - It would be far cheaper than having actual “focus groups” and the staff time to do it properly - Like most things CCP have done in recent years - It is done the cheapest possible way, regardless of the outcome.,. ---
**Author:** ![Kaylee\_Rayl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaylee_rayl/32/130709_2.png) [@Kaylee\_Rayl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaylee_Rayl)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 5:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/413 "2019-10-05T05:23:03Z")
Welcome 😁 Null sec runs Eve online. When you want to grow as a player, and develop your every skills and knowledge of the game, and really make some good ISKies in the process, come to nullsec. It is not as scary as highseccers tend to make it - most of HS are driven by fear. Sure there’s risk in NS, but then also are huge rewards, and a new world of possibilities. In parallel, and should you really not care where the game steers to, adopt to becoming a wormhole dweller. Eve online is a game that will improve your in-game experience and re-define your out of pod character traits. Embrace it. ---
**Author:** ![Kaylee\_Rayl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaylee_rayl/32/130709_2.png) [@Kaylee\_Rayl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaylee_Rayl)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 5:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/414 "2019-10-05T05:42:04Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > As for the rest, this was totally different from putting diesel in a gas engine. CCP didn’t know the result, and given how often we’ve surprised them with how we do things they don’t expect, I don’t think it’s reasonable or fair to say that blackout was an obvious mistake. > > They tried something. It didn’t work. They rolled it back. That is how we want them to iterate. > [@Arrendis](#): > > My problem is how CCP’s utter failure to understand people, and inability to clearly communicate in an effective way, caused a major degradation in the willingness of players to give them that chance. **Trials & Errors** is a development method for LOWTECH Devs; for baby game designers on Facebook; for people who do not have good knowledge of the psychology of their player base; or for a strong healthy-growing community. And CCP has a Test Server to run their ‘try outs’. They should also have had (after a 15 years lap record) a library of data, and the experience enabling them discerning powers that; while there’s a bleeding number of subs and a low retention rate, within a scifi-game that only fits a niche market - any responsible Dev or Decision-Maker should have steered clear of the BO ‘try out’. @Brisc_Rubal Remember bad decisions from CCP affects all of us. And YOU of all people should KNOW this - to this day your name is attached to false information. Yet, you keep ‘saying’ you represent the PEOPLE, and yet your rethoric only radiates ‘Hardcore Fanboy’ waves. Are you undoing your next campaign here? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/415 "2019-10-05T05:44:25Z")
> [@Kaylee\_Rayl](#): > > And CCP has a Test Server to run their ‘try outs’. Sisi can only ever be of fairly limited use for that sort of thing. What you need to model is human behavior in groups, at saturation; how the economy responds, including after-market cascade effects; how the meta shifts… those are all things you need to be able to model for Sisi testing to really be useful for anything bigger than ‘does this break the code anywhere?’ And Sisi doesn’t give you those. It can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kaylee\_Rayl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaylee_rayl/32/130709_2.png) [@Kaylee\_Rayl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaylee_Rayl)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/416 "2019-10-05T05:51:49Z")
My point exactly. Either gather sufficient info before any ‘try outs’, or don’t do it at all. But those CSM entourage being the devil’s advocate for CCP mistakes vs Players, in this case is simply out of line. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/417 "2019-10-05T06:36:47Z")
You miss the point. There is no way to gather info on people behaviour other than just putting it on TQ ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 6:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/418 "2019-10-05T06:56:28Z")
Many things to respond to… @Brisc_Rubal a) Reddit is not official forums. It is CSM and CCP job to post on official forums b) we will continue to disagree. CCP supposed sign goals were dumb & dumber because they had no sign goals and whatever they came up during BO was with the hope that players would buy their bs @Olmeca_Gold one of CSM jobs is to pound the priorities into CCP, but will come back to you in a bit… @Arrendis > [@Arrendis](#): > > And it’s only _cautiously_ right now because absolutely nobody from CCP has given them **any** communication to tell them if the half-assed chaos crap is continuing or not cautiously would be the understatement of the century,lol @Olmeca_Gold So I have read your thinking on what CSM is for. The only problem I have with what you posted is #4 . When voted you represent the entire community, period. Not the small numbers of pilots who voted you in. The CSM in its entirety represents the whole community whether the CSM likes the community ideas/complaints or not. Your job as CSM is to represent the entire playerbase and not spewing things based on your own feelings regarding a section of the game… @Brisc_Rubal the community team may have been there for less than 1 year, but that doesn’t excuse the lack of communication. And maybe if they don’ know how to communicate with players community, maybe they are not made for this… With that said, I will give them the benefit of the doubt in saying that they can only use what they are given and since @CCP_Hellmar is not doing anything that makes sense… @Sgt_Ocker > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > I really dislike CCP fanboys, especially those who just don’t have a clue. agreed with you. And as much as I disagree with @Brisc_Rubal, based on what I am reading, the biggest fanboy to CCP and who should have never been elected to CSM is @Olmeca_Gold @Brisc_Rubal > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You keep letting them butter you up and I keep telling you not to listen to it, and you keep doing it. Nothing irrational here - I’m just trying to help you. That is one thing I will agree with you. The last thing CSM needs are people who will get their asses kissed by CCP or will do the same to CCP. Which by the way is the impression I am getting based on BO, the CSM minutes and everything that has been going on. Makes me think of WWE, The Attitude Era and the old “Kiss My Ass Club” of Mr McMahon. @Olmeca_Gold > [@Olmeca\_Gold](#): > > How you can infer any specific treatment to me from CCP from what I said beyond me. You’ve got a rich imagination. Based on what we are reading from you (on forums, reddit and twitter) the past few month, do you really want an answer…? Honestly, I dont even think it is worth my time to get into this ---
**Author:** ![Xelios](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xelios/32/192236_2.png) [@Xelios](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xelios)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/419 "2019-10-05T07:43:40Z")
I hope an overpowered Trig dread fixes overpowered supercaps, if not I’m all out of ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/420 "2019-10-05T09:31:05Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Hilmar’s been all over the place, doing the EP’s job and spewing all sorts of nonsense without communicating any coherent vision. Mannbjorn’s been completely AWOL. Burger’s been stuck holding Hilmar’s beer. What I see is, Hilmar and Falcon want back the EvE of the past, of the time of people figuring out, learning, fighting. This times will not come back with the current demographic. EvE is solved. Burger is just a carebear giving focus to PvE (trigs and abyss instances are presumable his idea), without much plan and ambitions about PvP and market it seems. Hence Burger can’t work with Hilmars snippets. No idea what Mannbjorn’s role is here. But a translator is missing. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/421 "2019-10-05T13:19:19Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > What I see is, Hilmar and Falcon want back the EvE of the past, of the time of people figuring out, learning, fighting. This times will not come back with the current demographic. EvE is solved. This doesn’t _have_ to be true, though. Bring Rorqs back into line with what they should be, rather than the _stupid_ crap Fozzie knowingly made them into. Fix supers. You break the ‘I WIN’ nature of a supercapital fleet, and people need to start figuring things out again, because for half a decade now, the answer to any difficult scenario has been ‘can we escalate?’ And from there, you can start making other changes, changes that introduce—on the _players’_ side of the screen—chaos. But it _has_ to be on the players’ side of the screen. The developers have to have a clear, measured understanding of _what the changes do_. And they have to communicate the fact that they have that understanding, that they know WTF they’re doing. The goal is cyclical instability, so things can’t harden and calcify again… but that takes a lot of very hard, very exacting work behind the scenes. Well-balanced machinery that gives the illusion of natural dynamism needs some _serious_ engineering chops. And if CCP ain’t got 'em… they need to _lie_ while they figure out how to get those skills. Fake it 'til you make it. Because the players need to _think_ you’ve got it well in hand. ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/422 "2019-10-05T13:41:13Z")
Any chance you might consider running for CSM? I might not agree with everything, but everyone of your posts is well thought out, easy to read and a joy to understand [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645.md?page=20) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645.md?page=22)