# First CSM Summit Meeting Minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** devblog, csm\ **Created:** [September 27, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645 "2019-09-27T11:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 7:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/444 "2019-10-06T07:04:03Z")
Ok, so instead of a 100% automated system, now it’s ‘have one of the auth team in comms when you sign up for web services. When the system tries to query ESI, you tell them the code that was sent to your phone, and it’s all good’. More pointless complexity that neither fixes anything, nor offers anything. ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 7:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/445 "2019-10-06T07:49:37Z")
> [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > Yea and that is how we got this damn BO…People who know nothing about anything giving their opinions A bit like these forums… ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 9:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/446 "2019-10-06T09:01:02Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > but they did have goals. @Brisc_Rubal I may have missed this CCP post, but I don’t recall them ever announcing any goals behind this drama. And that is the problem right there. They screw everyone, but dont provide any valid explanation, nor even an “We are sorry to have screwed you all”. And they are definitely not on here defending their bs nor explaining how they are going to make it up to pilots > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > make bigger changes and iterate on those changes or roll them back if they didn’t work @Brisc_Rubal Changes that make sense. Not changes that screws the game and the majority of the pilots. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Here’s the problem - if you’re defining communication as “things posted only on the EVE Online official forums” then you’re cutting out a ton of the outreach the team has been doing. They’ve been doing the talk shows, posting here, dev blogs, reddit, gaming media articles - there’s been a lot of conversation about all of these topics. @Brisc_Rubal They can post wherever they want, including on each other facebook wall (to be polite). Dont care from the moment they provide the same damn info or at the very least a direct link to that info on official forums. Just one example. Those stats @CCP_Larrikin posted on reddit, he should have posted the direct link out here or copied and pasted the info. And not wait for a CSM to share a link and for a player (me) to copy and paste the info. Between Steve and myself, it took us less than 1 minute to actually do that…And if you are going to have official forums, you better use them… ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 9:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/447 "2019-10-06T09:47:15Z")
… of course doing this would be against the EULA and a bannable offense like account sharing. So no org can afford to request that. ---
**Author:** ![Bustler\_Deninard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bustler_deninard/32/394453_2.png) [@Bustler\_Deninard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bustler_Deninard)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/448 "2019-10-06T14:54:28Z")
Suggesting to add a “Glossary” of terms and abbreviations that are used. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/449 "2019-10-06T15:00:16Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > of course doing this would be against the EULA and a bannable offense like account sharing. It’s not against the EULA, no. You’re not giving anyone access to your account, you’re only giving them access to the ESI data—which is exactly what the ESI data is _for_. so now you’re introducing changes to the EULA as well, and largely invalidating ESI. Do you seriously not see how this is a ridiculous amount of headache just to pursue your crusade against large organizations existing? All this work, just to try to force people to not assemble in groups larger than Dunbar’s number. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/450 "2019-10-06T16:47:12Z")
> [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > Uhh, the CSM didn’t cause the BO, you know. > > I mean, we’d talked, in the past, about doing something to Local. But the key there is ‘doing something’, not ‘turning off’ This is very important. BO was discussed a lot… I have experience of mentioning or talking about it maybe two times long ago. So did anti-missol lazors, just 'cause anti missol… missols are kinda stoopid when having lazor tech. Many things were discussed. That doesn’t make them valid, viable or good. Thanks Steve for clearing that part. I think it’s crucial for people to understand where stuff comes and doesn’t emanate from. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/451 "2019-10-06T16:58:23Z")
> [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > a) Reddit is not official forums. It is CSM and CCP job to post on official forums This is a fundamental reason that discourages me from voicing my opinion, sometimes there is information out there, shared by a few on some social media channel which are considered fact. Most " fact checks" refer to those channels and one cannot be in all of them. So who knows when who said what shouldn’t be allover the place. ON ZE OTZER HAND… Well, CSM, CCP, their fanbois, gruppies & Co. are quite reactive on the usual “damage control” on reddit, discord, tweeter, etc. Which questions the validity of having the forums as official channel for discussing in game stuff. I don’t think CSM and/or some levels from CCP should be allowed outside official forums. ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/452 "2019-10-06T18:29:59Z")
The problem is that until CSM and CCP become more forthcoming with facts, numbers, goals and details, no one knows anything. We as a community shouldnt have to “pull teeth out” from CSM and CCP to get accurate and timely information, which is what is basically going on this thread…To be fair, more from CCP than CSM, but same fight… And it is up to CCP to be on here defending their crap and providing explanations. But looks like CCP is lacking balls to do anything but hide behind CSM behind ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/453 "2019-10-06T18:49:36Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > All this work, just to try to force people to not assemble in groups larger than Dunbar’s number. I don’t see work, I’m just posting ideas in the forum … like you. 😉 And actually the idea to limit access of third parties to critical information in order to force personal trust among the members of a group is not mine, CCP came up with this first (don’t remember who, maybe Hilmar himself). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/454 "2019-10-06T20:54:08Z")
> [@Xucca](#): > > I don’t think CSM and/or some levels from CCP should be allowed outside official forums. I don’t work for CCP. They don’t get to tell me, outside of the NDA and EULA (covering this forum), what I can and can’t say, and where I can and can’t say it. There are people who will not talk on these forums. Am I supposed to ignore them? > [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > The problem is that until CSM and CCP become more forthcoming with facts, numbers, goals and details, no one knows anything. Once again, do I have to point out that the CSM cannot reveal anything? That that’s the point of the NDA? Is this hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Kaylee\_Rayl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaylee_rayl/32/130709_2.png) [@Kaylee\_Rayl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaylee_Rayl)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/455 "2019-10-06T23:56:04Z")
He’s right @Ikki_Phoenix some figures CCP cannot unveil because other game competitions are also watching the forums. Eve online has been a source of intel for a lot more people than those who currently care for the game. ---
**Author:** ![Kaylee\_Rayl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaylee_rayl/32/130709_2.png) [@Kaylee\_Rayl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaylee_Rayl)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 11:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/456 "2019-10-06T23:59:06Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I’m sorry if you disagree with that. Oh ma bad maestro, I was just shaking the tree for more apples 😁 nothing personal. ---
**Author:** ![Kaylee\_Rayl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaylee_rayl/32/130709_2.png) [@Kaylee\_Rayl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaylee_Rayl)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/457 "2019-10-07T00:09:37Z")
Maybe I find it peanuts cause where I am in the game now. And maybe it needs another boost. Young ones are okay with such amount, but working adults might find it ridicule. The more ISK one has early on, the more this could empower NPs to try WWS (wild west sec: ns/ls) Pvp. Don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/458 "2019-10-07T02:00:02Z")
> [@Kaylee\_Rayl](#): > > Maybe I find it peanuts cause where I am in the game now. Or maybe you find it peanuts because it hasn’t changed in 13+ years and really, inflation’s a thing. Mission payouts, like the rest of the mission system, needs to be overhauled and updated. But that’s a monumental undertaking, and it’s not one CCP’s ready to make right now—and likely never will be. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/459 "2019-10-07T02:13:49Z")
> [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > @Brisc_Rubal I may have missed this CCP post, but I don’t recall them ever announcing any goals behind this drama. And that is the problem right there. They screw everyone, but dont provide any valid explanation, nor even an “We are sorry to have screwed you all”. And they are definitely not on here defending their bs nor explaining how they are going to make it up to pilots Hillmar did an interview with Talking in Stations, Rise did an interview with Talking in Stations, there were articles and conversations about it on all the EVE media, and all that stuff was cross posted to the forums. Just google “Hillmar and Blackout” and a bunch of stuff comes up. He almost always talks about the goals. > [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > @Brisc_Rubal Changes that make sense. Not changes that screws the game and the majority of the pilots. This is subjective. What one person likes another hates, and vice versa. There are plenty of folks unhappy that it got rolled back at all. They didn’t think it screwed them or their playstyles. > [@Ikki\_Phoenix](#): > > Between Steve and myself, it took us less than 1 minute to actually do that…And if you are going to have official forums, you better use them… That’s where the conversation was the sparked the info. They post here. Their posts are easily found if they make them here. I just think this is an unfair criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/460 "2019-10-07T03:28:48Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Hillmar did an interview with Talking in Stations, Rise did an interview with Talking in Stations, there were articles and conversations about it on all the EVE media, and all that stuff was cross posted to the forums. Not to be a dick about it, Brisc, but none of that was crossposted to the EVE Online forums _by CCP_. And you know, that _is_ a problem. Going on TiS is great and all, but let’s face it: that’s not here. They said they’d be doing their communication _here_. And they’re not. 14,000+ posts in 2 threads on the Blackout. How many of those are from CCP? Two. Both of those are Falcon creating the threads. And then they stayed the hell away. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > That’s where the conversation was the sparked the info. They post here. 14,000 posts in two _feedback_ topics. Nothing from CCP. Falcon wasn’t even paying enough attention to notice the first thread had auto-locked until _after_ he merged another 2000+ post thread into it. And then he tweeted how awesome it was, _still without responding to a single thing in it_. How many responses have they offered here? Sure, the community team’s new. Falcon isn’t. But he’d rather troll people on /r/eve. Maybe they should try actually having conversations here, where they told us they would. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/461 "2019-10-07T03:36:41Z")
Thank you for venting my frustrations for me. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 7:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/462 "2019-10-07T07:42:27Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Maybe they should try actually having conversations here, where they told us they would. Would they have anything to say that wouldn’t be likely to create drama, drama they can’t and or don’t want to deal with.,. While seeing Devs and other CCP’rs posting and conversing with the community is a great ideal, it isn’t practical given the current state of things. My hope is that when CCP do have a plan they will share it with players, they will actually listen to feedback that is given when they ask for it and do more than just pay lip service to the concerns of players. - Yes I know, unrealistic hopes given CCP’s history with communication and feedback but maybe a new community team with a new outlook… ---
**Author:** ![Ikki\_Phoenix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikki_phoenix/32/391105_2.png) [@Ikki\_Phoenix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikki_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 12:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645/463 "2019-10-07T12:21:30Z")
Do I really need to go back on my thoughts on TiS and the interviews they did? Well, I will say it again. As much as I give credit to Matterall for defending his people, those TiS interviews were simply kiss my ass interviews, and honestly, they sound more scripted than genuine… And again, they can post wherever they want from the moment they provide the links and other info on here as well. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > There are plenty of folks unhappy that it got rolled back at all. They didn’t think it screwed them or their playstyles. When the BO hit, we didnt lose players because they loved it… > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Their posts are easily found if they make them here. I just think this is an unfair criticism And that is the thing, info is not posted on here. > [@Kaylee\_Rayl](#): > > He’s right @Ikki_Phoenix some figures CCP cannot unveil because other game competitions are also watching the forums. Eve online has been a source of intel for a lot more people than those who currently care for the game. CCP needs to worry about their own game instead of worrying about competitors. Competitors who by the way got quite the boost thanks to the BO > [@Arrendis](#): > > Two. Both of those are Falcon creating the threads. And then they stayed the hell away. For the simple reason that they cannot defend their actions. They know it but refuse to recognize that and refuse to get on the record about it. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > While seeing Devs and other CCP’rs posting and conversing with the community is a great ideal, it isn’t practical given the current state of things. It is their mess and their mess to fix, which includes communication. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645.md?page=22) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/first-csm-summit-meeting-minutes/192645.md?page=24)