# For those who accuse CCP of Making Eve Online 'Pay to Win' **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197 "2019-07-11T17:42:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bellanea\_Rajanir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bellanea_rajanir/32/130836_2.png) [@Bellanea\_Rajanir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bellanea_Rajanir)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 9:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/41 "2019-07-12T09:10:01Z")
There can be many definitions of “winning” EVE. One of it is leaving it (as in winning with your addiction), so I dont really know what this thread is about. Can you write your definition of winning eve, and support it with some numbers of spent income to win it the way you think about? ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 10:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/42 "2019-07-12T10:44:13Z")
> [@Nasar\_Vyron](#): > > This shows a direct lack of understanding of game mechanics. Skills cap out at level 5, the power difference between 4 and 5 is minimal except in cases where you are then training spec skills which is a “tier” bump. However, a very long time ago they reduced this requirement on hulls which used to require the previous hull 5 down to the current 3. That was a huge boon to new players trying to play catch up in actual power scaling. > > You did this before and a corpmate of mine ripped you on it. A subscription fee is not “pay to win” never in a million years can you make an actual arguement of this in the EVE universe. Not as long as skills remain capped. You really are clueless on game mechanics, aren’t you? Your ‘corp mate’ was also. Here’s some tips, for those of you who are trying their hardest to pretend EVE isn’t EVE, it’s something else: - Many skills don’t ‘cap’ at 5, reaching 5 unlocks the next skill up which continues to increase power. - Many powerful ships and modules require you to cap one skill, then the next, then the next, until you have all unlocked. - The difference between 4 and 5 is not ‘minimal’, it’s the exact same as the difference between 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. For the mathematically challenged, ‘5 times something’ is greater than ‘4 times something’. - Having more skills at 5, and more skills trained, has a synergistic effect on ship design. You can more easily fill defense holes, increase combat limitations (range, tracking etc), select a better ship for the task, and so on. - Having more non-combat, ‘support’ skills trained up (social, trade, production etc.) strengthens your ISK earning and other support functions, so that you can more easily acquire, outfit and risk ships. A subscription fee is not, as stated, normally P2W… _except when you tie skill training directly to subbed time_. Then it becomes a variant of P2W. Vet players, “I’m just more skilled than you”, people who bling ships without knowing how to fly them… these are all the smoke screens EVE players keep throwing out to pretend it’s not P2W. And as stated, multiple times, but some people are hard of reading… I don’t care that EVE is set up that way. Pay all you want, fine by me. I just feel, and believe that industry trends and EVE trends are clearly showing, that the EVE ‘pay to train skills’ model is old, unattractive, and needs to be updated. As do many other core aspects of EVE, of course. > [@Nasar\_Vyron](#): > > If EVE had infinitely scaling skill levels you’d be correct, but we don’t which makes your entire arguement invalid since built directly into the game itself is an arbitrary cap which allows players to catch up to even the most hardened vet. The only thing the new player will lack is variety and knowledge which come with time - just like in every mmo in existance. Seriously, do you think for even two seconds before you write stuff like this? Many important EVE skills take literally months and years of training, yet you are claiming no barrier at all between new players and ‘the most hardened vets’ except game knowledge and ‘variety’? Or allowing new players to ‘catch up’ to people who are years of the game ahead of them? People who can do math start EVE, look at the way it’s set up, figure out they will always be literally years behind everyone who’s been in the game a fair bit longer than them. Then they find out there is no separation of ‘newer guys’ from ‘long time players’… it’s all one big sandbox. That steadily dropping player population chart for the last 6 years? That’s thousands of potential players per week saying ‘Pass’. ---
**Author:** ![Sordina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sordina/32/148069_2.png) [@Sordina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sordina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 11:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/43 "2019-07-12T11:05:46Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > People who can do math start EVE, look at the way it’s set up, figure out they will always be literally years behind everyone Behind in what? SP number? Flying cap don’t make you better player. neither billions in your wallet. Current problem of EVE are people that think if they don’t have all skills on lvl 5 fully purple ship they cant play and enjoy game. Btw. grinding isk is not a game. ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 11:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/44 "2019-07-12T11:40:21Z")
> [@Duro\_Peripar](#): > > Pay to win is EVERY ingame advantage you can pay for,irrelevant if you can get it also playing(a very long time in most cases) > The MOMENT you can buy this with real money a game is pay to win… > And yes this means injectors are pay to win in eve…even if you can’t “win” eve that’s irrelevant…you buy plex for real money,sell them and buy injectors…pay to win… > Bottom line… I disagree. ‘Pay to Win’ means (to me), having to pay to get something you **can’t get otherwise**. Skills accumulate more slowly without injectors, but they do accumulate nonetheless. If the **only** way you can acquire new skills is with Injectors, then you’d be right - but it isn’t so you’re wrong. eta: When you’re an Omega you train at twice the speed of an Alpha - are you going to claim that that’s ‘Pay to Win’, too ? ---
**Author:** ![Billy\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/billy_mccandless/32/374524_2.png) [@Billy\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Billy_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 11:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/45 "2019-07-12T11:41:12Z")
wen eye wuz onlee a litle boie i arsked mi mum wart wood bee teh best wai to bee a gud carpsuilear and wot she sayed has aulweys bean in mi hed; “don do badd thinges onny do gud thins nevar poot jamm on a mag net nevar poot a pigg down yer trousers and alwayes treet yore neebor as sumwun wot lifes neckst door to yoo” sow thats wat i caul “play to whin” ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 11:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/46 "2019-07-12T11:42:38Z")
> [@Billy\_McCandless](#): > > sow thats wat i caul “play to whin” The trouble is that so many misread that as “play to whine”… ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/47 "2019-07-12T13:34:39Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > - Many skills don’t ‘cap’ at 5, reaching 5 unlocks the next skill up which continues to increase power. All skills are capped at 5, the fact that a level 5 skill may unlock further skills doesn’t alter the fact that there is no skill level beyond 5. > - Many powerful ships and modules require you to cap one skill, then the next, then the next, until you have all unlocked. Yet all the skills you need to train for said ship are capped at 5. > - The difference between 4 and 5 is not ‘minimal’, it’s the exact same as the difference between 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. For the mathematically challenged, ‘5 times something’ is greater than ‘4 times something’. While 5 is certainly greater than 4, returns on skills are diminishing in nature due to the ramping up of the time required as you climb the skill from level 1 to 5, and that the skill level bonus’ are applied to the base attribute, not the cumulative one. Time also has to be considered when claiming that the difference between a lvl 4 and lvl 5 skill is minimal, the consideration being do you really want to spent weeks or months training for lvl 5 when lvl 4 is 80+% as effective. Unless it is required to advance the answer is often sod that. ---
**Author:** ![Duro\_Peripar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duro_peripar/32/168259_2.png) [@Duro\_Peripar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duro_Peripar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/48 "2019-07-12T14:24:04Z")
> [@Dravick\_Afterthought](#): > > eta: When you’re an Omega you train at twice the speed of an Alpha - are you going to claim that that’s ‘Pay to Win’, too ? In my definition? sure… This is the perfect example for your “can’t get otherwise”… There should be no learning advantage for omegas just because they are omegas… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/49 "2019-07-12T14:25:32Z")
> [@Duro\_Peripar](#): > > There should be no Alphas ---
**Author:** ![Duro\_Peripar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duro_peripar/32/168259_2.png) [@Duro\_Peripar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duro_Peripar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/50 "2019-07-12T14:26:12Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Alphas maybe.but they exist so what to do? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/51 "2019-07-12T14:27:01Z")
As do Omega’s faster time training, so what to do? ---
**Author:** ![Natocha\_Daisy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/natocha_daisy/32/474632_2.png) [@Natocha\_Daisy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Natocha_Daisy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/52 "2019-07-12T14:49:56Z")
Everyone knows Eve is pay to lose…the more u pay the more u end up losing. The more you play, the more time you invest building, the more you lose. The only way to win is get numbers - other players to join your fleet. Eve is seriously flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/53 "2019-07-12T14:52:57Z")
So how come you’re omega? ---
**Author:** ![Duro\_Peripar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duro_peripar/32/168259_2.png) [@Duro\_Peripar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duro_Peripar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/54 "2019-07-12T15:01:45Z")
easy… I would also be omega if there would be no learning boost… Simply because i support the sub system and want nothing else… All this micropayment stuff gives me boils… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/55 "2019-07-12T15:02:22Z")
Ah gotcha. So its ok for you, just not other people. I see. How noble. ---
**Author:** ![Duro\_Peripar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duro_peripar/32/168259_2.png) [@Duro\_Peripar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duro_Peripar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/56 "2019-07-12T15:03:40Z")
What? I don’t get what you are interpreting in… Just understand what you want to eh? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/57 "2019-07-12T15:05:00Z")
> [@Duro\_Peripar](#): > > Just understand what you want to eh? I understand perfectly. You say Omega shouldnt have 2 x Skill Training, but you are still using it yourself. You want others to do without even though you wont. ---
**Author:** ![Duro\_Peripar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duro_peripar/32/168259_2.png) [@Duro\_Peripar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duro_Peripar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/58 "2019-07-12T15:06:21Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > I understand perfectly. > > You say Omega shouldnt have 2 x Skill Training, but you are still using it yourself. > > You want others to do without even though you wont. no i’m saying i would also be omega if that would be NOT be the case… sry but your answer looks like you wanted to turn around the words in my mouth…and this is anything but polite… ---
**Author:** ![Duro\_Peripar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duro_peripar/32/168259_2.png) [@Duro\_Peripar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duro_Peripar)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/59 "2019-07-12T15:07:45Z")
> [@Duro\_Peripar](#): > > easy… > > I would also be omega if there would be no learning boost… > > Simply because i support the sub system and want nothing else… > > All this micropayment stuff gives me boils… How is this misunderstandable with a little bit of good will? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/60 "2019-07-12T15:08:40Z")
> [@Duro\_Peripar](#): > > and this is anything but polite… In what way? So pointing out you wanting something changed, but continuing to use it in a way you feel is wrong is being rude? If you disagree with a thing, you probably shouldnt use it then, should you? Means you dont actually believe in what you are talking about. Why would anyone be convinced to agree with you if you dont believe in your own message? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197.md?page=4)