# For those who accuse CCP of Making Eve Online 'Pay to Win' **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197 "2019-07-11T17:42:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/101 "2019-07-13T14:00:37Z")
THIS IS MURICA! ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/102 "2019-07-13T14:29:00Z")
> [@Wander\_Prian](#): > > What you forget: > > There is only a limited number of skills that apply to a single activity in Eve. And as has been pointed out before, skills max out at lvl 5. A new player can get just as good in a single activity as a veteran Eve-player (character skill-wise) in relatively short time. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > More like ignore because it doesn’t suit their position Okay, well, last post on this topic in this thread. Mostly because some people are so incredibly thick on this point that there is no amount of reasoning that will change their view. Yes, a new player can get to rank 4 in, say, Light missiles, ‘relatively quickly’. Does this make him ‘80% as good as’ a veteran player with 3 or more years lead on him? Well, of course not. Because that vet has it at 5, and also has Rapid Launch at 4. Oh and he also has Guided Precision at 4. Oh wait, he also has Warhead Upgrades at 5. So a new player only has to spend another month or so to catch up and be ‘almost as good as’ that vet, right? Because, hey, skills are capped at 5 and 4 is practically 5 so it’s only a few more weeks training! Oh wait, nope, turns out that the vet is using T2 weapons. Oh, and he has his CPU, Power Grid, and Capacitor skills maxed. Oh, and gee, look, he has 8 other missile skills maxed too. And his Armor skills! And his Shield skills! Oh, and gosh, he has all those unlocked to T2 too! And darn, he has these Implant skills unlocked, and has much better implants. And gee, he has the ISK to buy all those things he’s unlocked. But yeah, let the P2W crowd keep trying to convince themselves that new players can be ‘almost as good as’ a vet player in ‘a relatively short time’. Apparently it’s something they really need to believe. New/intermediate players, however, are less gullible than these ‘vets’. And 6 years of dropping player numbers shows it. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/103 "2019-07-13T14:43:18Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Yes, a new player can get to rank 4 in, say, Light missiles, ‘relatively quickly’. Does this make him ‘80% as good as’ a veteran player with 3 or more years lead on him? > > Well, of course not. Because that vet has it at 5, and also has Rapid Launch at 4. Oh and he also has Guided Precision at 4. Oh wait, he also has Warhead Upgrades at 5. SP is not the only part of the equation, experience is where the newer player really loses out. Give the newer player the higher SP levels and the vet the lower ones; in all likelihood the newer player still has a fairly good chance of getting their arses handed to them, despite their advantage in SP. ---
**Author:** ![Kashara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kashara/32/143900_2.png) [@Kashara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kashara)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/104 "2019-07-13T15:12:15Z")
can buy isk and skills. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/d/9/d9423b635efc712ea5c57b973c70e35ed2032208.png) ---
**Author:** ![Nasar\_Vyron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nasar_vyron/32/264128_2.png) [@Nasar\_Vyron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nasar_Vyron)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/105 "2019-07-13T17:15:47Z")
> [@Drx\_Drx](#): > > It is you who lacks understranding of game mechanics. > > In eve small percentages make a big difference. Kid you need to sit down. Anyone who’s been playing this game for any length of time knows the difference between 4 and 5 is quite literally worthless and overcome by simply who shot who first, or even more simply put, who brought friends? The difference between 4 and 5 is usually 2-5% on the base. A wrecking shot almost entirely tied to rng has more impact on a fight than this in most scenarios. Who actually flew in their optimal, who fit what weapon system, etc. All things that have far more impact on a fight than 4 vs 5. Only newcomers to EVE actually think these skills matter more than actually getting all appropriate skills to 4 and getting out there and getting yourself experience by actually getting into fights. 5s come with time, a lot of it, and are in no way worth it to a newbro. They’re more of a trap than anything causing to sink weeks and months into a skill for a tiny bonus, or getting them into more expensive ships they cannot yet afford to lose regularly. The most impactful thing on retention right now are new players coming and and being told to do exactly that. Combined with the glaring lack of actual meaningful content for low to mid range skilled players that could allow them to log in, make some isk while having fun (preferably in a group), and learn at the same time without being overly punishing. ---
**Author:** ![Agondray](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/agondray/32/414989_2.png) [@Agondray](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Agondray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/106 "2019-07-13T17:35:56Z")
im playing a mobile naval based strategy game that is selling a ship to add to your fleet for $400, it is used by itself to whip out entire fleets while having the owner maintains minimal loss of nothing but some resources to keep it repaired ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/107 "2019-07-13T21:18:22Z")
ok… Give your newbie all the SP and skills he needs… And ill take an alpha account with a merlin and chew that newbie up. Why? because i know the mechanics better, and how to fly my ships… despite SP. That is what a newbie can not compete with, actual experience playing the game…not the SP or skills…your argument is mostly irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![March\_rabbit](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/march_rabbit/32/453160_2.png) [@March\_rabbit](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/March_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/108 "2019-07-14T16:50:12Z")
You just used all 5 items from his list with your story. And still you do not seem to agree with him? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/109 "2019-07-14T19:25:08Z")
> [@Agondray](#): > > im playing a mobile naval based strategy game that is selling a ship to add to your fleet for $400, it is used by itself to whip out entire fleets while having the owner maintains minimal loss of nothing but some resources to keep it repaired plus nothing but an actual US $400… ---
**Author:** ![Vernon\_Legaspe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vernon_legaspe/32/144885_2.png) [@Vernon\_Legaspe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vernon_Legaspe)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/110 "2019-07-15T17:47:53Z")
I don’t think that’s really the definition anymore. What games have items or abilities you can only get by paying? Most “p2win” games have cash shops where you can instantly obtain things that are otherwise available through gameplay. In Eve you can obtain the two most important things, skill points and isk (through which all in-game items are purchased) simply by buying plex. This isn’t really all that bad, since a noob credit card warrior is likely to 1) not really know how to utilize his financial advantage and 2) still be very vulnerable to groups of players, but I think you have a very hard time arguing that Eve doesn’t at least have some P2Win elements when a new player can buy plex and be fully skilled and sitting in most any ship nearly instantly. Imagine world of warcraft if you could buy a maximum level boost AND top tier equipment instantly with a credit card. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/111 "2019-07-15T17:52:25Z")
You cant buy the best ship ---
**Author:** ![Foggy\_Bernstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/foggy_bernstein/32/407887_2.png) [@Foggy\_Bernstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Foggy_Bernstein)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/112 "2019-07-15T18:47:14Z")
Friendship? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/113 "2019-07-15T18:48:15Z")
---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 2:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/114 "2019-07-16T02:43:13Z")
It’s a CCP scam. Miners think they will do better if they purchase plex, but CCP knows that they can never purchase the CODE. More isk just means the miner dies in a blingier ship. ---
**Author:** ![Freelancer117](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/freelancer117/32/435453_2.png) [@Freelancer117](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Freelancer117)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 10:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/115 "2019-07-17T10:19:45Z")
It will not surprise me that by the end of 2020, when the company is desperate for cash and to make right with their new overlords, they will sell and spawn golden ammo out of thin air. Since “greed is good”, an axiom even capsuleers nowadays abide by, this will have a huge traction. Who doesn’t like Free stuff, even if it’s free golden ammo. And since all the old bitter vets that used to raise a loud protest voice have been driven away by the lack luster commitment of the company to it’s own game and community, nobody will care. In the end the game that used to be harsh but full of possibilities, will simply simper away… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 10:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/116 "2019-07-17T10:30:43Z")
> [@Freelancer117](#): > > when the company is desperate for cash Thats funny, given theyve already sold themselves. Hilmars laughing all the way to the bank. You think he cares anymore? > [@Freelancer117](#): > > Since “greed is good”, an axiom even capsuleers nowadays abide by If you werent doing that since day one, what _were_ you doing for isk? > [@Freelancer117](#): > > lack luster commitment of the company to it’s own game and community Yeah cos this doesnt happen in every industry… Oh wait ---
**Author:** ![Yonna\_Leczarovitz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yonna_leczarovitz/32/218320_2.png) [@Yonna\_Leczarovitz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yonna_Leczarovitz)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/117 "2019-07-17T12:13:18Z")
Censured ---
**Author:** ![Oi\_Shi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oi_shi/32/151025_2.png) [@Oi\_Shi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oi_Shi)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/118 "2019-07-29T00:43:04Z")
It’s been Pay-to-win since you could buy PLEX. Sure you got the argument about experience counts when it comes to PvP combat., but you don’t need much experience to become a trader or even a manufacturer. ---
**Author:** ![Shai\_Hulud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shai_hulud/32/279251_2.png) [@Shai\_Hulud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shai_Hulud)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 9:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/119 "2019-07-29T09:13:13Z")
‘Pay-to-win’ relates to advantages gained from spending extra real $ on the game above and beyond standard purchase and subscription costs. EVE clearly has P2W elements because it’s always better to have more ISK (or asset value, same thing). Anyone who disagrees should prove me wrong by sending me half of their ISK + assets… ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 12:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197/120 "2019-07-29T12:04:28Z")
To me, _‘Pay to Win’_ relates to advantages which can **only** be gained by paying real money. The only way in which Eve resembles that is the Alpha/Omega sub, once you’re Omega **everything** is available to you eventually, provided you pay your sub. You can even stop paying your sub for a while, and when you resume paying you’ll be back where you were when you stopped, with no loss or penalty. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/for-those-who-accuse-ccp-of-making-eve-online-pay-to-win/174197.md?page=7)