# Framing **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 21, 2023, 7:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337 "2023-12-21T07:59:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rtsu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rtsu/32/382977_2.png) [@Rtsu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rtsu)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 7:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/1 "2023-12-21T07:59:11Z")
Hello. A little over 20 years ago a few people designed EVE Online. It was a great design. Since then about 200 people or so have been rent seeking on their work. But also making changes and moving away from the original ideas and vision just for the sake of it because they think that’s what being smart is. Thats it. Thats the topic. Lets discuss ---
**Author:** ![Dreg\_Apc](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dreg_apc/32/381263_2.png) [@Dreg\_Apc](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dreg_Apc)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 8:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/2 "2023-12-21T08:08:32Z")
This is a good topic. But not sure how the original ideas and vision have been changed. But there have been random changes to things like the UI and various other things. Like, it gets changed just for the sake of changing it which is something only stupid people would do? ---
**Author:** ![Rtsu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rtsu/32/382977_2.png) [@Rtsu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rtsu)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 8:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/3 "2023-12-21T08:25:52Z")
The original vision did not have nannys like for example the safety system. But also the AIR Career program and even the opportunities tab can be considered nannys. And obviously the gifts for just logging in. The partner program also has nanny vibes. Unfortunately i think CCP is at a place where they think they have not introduced enough of this type of things and believe that is why they are not as successful as in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Calamity\_Unleashed](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/calamity_unleashed/32/413414_2.png) [@Calamity\_Unleashed](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Calamity_Unleashed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 9:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/4 "2023-12-21T09:59:13Z")
> [@Rtsu](#): > > making changes and moving away from the original ideas and vision just for the sake of it because they think that’s what being smart is What was the original vision? Before we can discuss we need to be clear what that was. Also, products need to evolve. Maybe it was okay for EvE to have the bare minimum twenty years ago but gaming has changed since then, the demographic of gamers has, too. It’s expected that changes would come after so many years of no evolution, maybe even stagnation. CCP says they have a vision for the future of EvE. I’ll be sticking around since I’m curious but I’m already impressed with what I’ve seen so far. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/5 "2023-12-21T12:54:06Z")
> [@Rtsu](#): > > But also making changes and moving away from the original ideas and vision just for the sake of it because they think that’s what being smart is. to imply that evolving a game over 20 years isnt smart is very stupid ! if eve would have not changed then nobody would play this anymore ! i know you will come up that eve´s playerbase is that low that we already can say “nobody plays this game” but youre wrong ! > [@Rtsu](#): > > It was a great design. it IS a great design ! and CCP didnt change the original idea of this game ! they changed the look, they changed some balance stuff, they changed all this nice stuff it need to be changed ! but the game is still the same in his base as it starts 2003 ! > [@Dreg\_Apc](#): > > This is a good topic. no its not ! its a subtile rant to CCP that they destroyed their game ! he trolls and spamms the forum ! > [@Rtsu](#): > > The original vision did not have nannys like for example the safety system. its not a nanny ! it was a missing tool and still it didnt changed the base idea of this game ! > [@Rtsu](#): > > But also the AIR Career program and even the opportunities tab can be considered nannys. why ? xD you come wich such statements and dont bring any reason ! only your alternated facts ! your opinion ! your crazy logic ! both are good to see because they give the new player a little orientation ! > [@Rtsu](#): > > Unfortunately i think CCP is at a place where they think they have not introduced enough of this type of things and believe that is why they are not as successful as in the past. where do you know they are not succesful ? they have a running game for 20 years ! if thats no succes then i dont know what succes is ! you want that this game would have millions of active players? that never would happen ! its a niche game … its to harsh for the most ! its to harsh for you thats why you need to start crying in this forum that this game is bad ! if you think the game is bad then stop playing ! dont spamm this forum with threads of your stupid ideas ! ---
**Author:** ![Done25](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/done25/32/494511_2.png) [@Done25](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Done25)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/6 "2023-12-21T13:28:44Z")
Well hold on now. There’s nothing wrong with experimentation so long as you’re willing to step back should things not work out. ---
**Author:** ![Done25](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/done25/32/494511_2.png) [@Done25](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Done25)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/7 "2023-12-21T13:34:13Z")
I mean, they’d probably be right? Eve is a very complex game. One where the punishments can be _very_ harsh. Both of which combined can serve to chase off players before they manage to settle in and acclimate. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/8 "2023-12-21T14:01:46Z")
> [@Rtsu](#): > > But also making changes and moving away from the original ideas and vision just for the sake of it because they think that’s what being smart is. There’s the “original vision”, and there’s “what got pushed out the door when the deadline hit, and we’ll work on fixing up the rest later”. CCP spent about 6 years expanding on the original concepts, during which time most of the original designers got bored or dissatisfied or maneuvered out of the company. Since around 2010 CCP’s been a bit visionless, really. With apparently more focus on “OK we did EVE, now what do we do next?” than on making EVE the best it can be. For over a decade, EVE has primarily been the cash cow that CCP milks to fund whatever else it’s trying to create a ‘vision’ of. So most of the changes to EVE have been focused on ways to push the niche audience into paying more for the privilege. And then when that approach blows up in their face and income drops, CCP goes into a year or two of “recovery” mode and struggles to add something to the game to lure paying players (or investor funding) back. I get the feeling that over the last few years, somewhere along the way someone at CCP woke up a bit and realized “Oh hey, you know what? We **actually need our players** and we’re actually getting some competition out there, so maybe we should, I dunno, add some stuff for the players?” This led to a lot of head-scratching and false starts and shooting themselves in the foot (and some **really bloated UI bits** ) but that’s just CCP flailing about as usual. I’m not sure there’s been a vision at CCP that lasted more than a few quarter’s financial results. For the moment, they seem to be interested in adding actual EVE content for portions of the playerbase, and that’s probably the best we can hope for until somebody’s nephew turns out to be an actually decent game designer. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/9 "2023-12-21T14:39:26Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > CCP spent about 6 years expanding on the original concepts, during which time most of the original designers got bored or dissatisfied or maneuvered out of the company. proof ? where is your list of developers they leave beacause they were bored and dissatisfied ? every company has employee fluctuation ! this is normal and cannot be prevented ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > With apparently more focus on “OK we did EVE, now what do we do next?” than on making EVE the best it can be. oh, thats the reason for all the updates and expansions … they were visionless and did something else ! … > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > For over a decade, EVE has primarily been the cash cow its still the cash cow until CCP has another product wich is way profitable then eve online ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > So most of the changes to EVE have been focused on ways to push the niche audience into paying more for the privilege. lets see … they raised the price of their product only 1 times ( as i can remember ) and this was legit ! and you wanna say what ? every expansion was planned to raise the prices ? oO every expansion was planned to get $ from their customers ? of course they want to see money … they are a company with employees they need to get paied … if they dont generate income they cant pay their employees and they can close their company ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > And then when that approach blows up in their face and income drops, CCP goes into a year or two of “recovery” mode and struggles to add something to the game to lure paying players (or investor funding) back. when was their “recovery mode” maybe i completly ignored it ? im interested in this “fact” > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I get the feeling that over the last few years, somewhere along the way someone at CCP woke up a bit and realized “Oh hey, you know what? We **actually need our players** and we’re actually getting some competition out there, so maybe we should, I dunno, add some stuff for the players?” lol ? they know exactly that they need their players ! they are the ppl who payed their paychecks ! every company knows this pretty well ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > This led to a lot of head-scratching and false starts and shooting themselves in the foot (and some **really bloated UI bits** ) but that’s just CCP flailing about as usual. ok then you can tell us 1 company without any decicions theyve done, and their customers where always happy with it ! tell us … > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I’m not sure there’s been a vision at CCP that lasted more than a few quarter’s financial results. to reach the quarter financial result isnt a vision ! thats the basement they need to stay on market ! their vision is to develope a good space game ! and they did ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > For the moment, they seem to be interested in adding actual EVE content for portions of the playerbase, and that’s probably the best we can hope for until somebody’s nephew turns out to be an actually decent game designer. was always the plan xD they are develope this game since more then 20 years now and if they didnt want it for their player then they would flop ! and as we know and also as we can see, eve isnt a flop ! its a niche game and it was always a niche game ! but they create $ with it and this tells the story of a good game ! ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/10 "2023-12-21T14:50:30Z")
> [@Vuhdo\_Rin](#): > > im interested in this “fact” Actually dude, you mostly seem to be interested in yapping and snarling on the forums. Answering the points of someone who’s just here to bark louder than the other dogs isn’t something I do. Also, I realize English isn’t your first language (at least I truly hope it isn’t), but you should try to learn another piece of punctuation beyond the exclamation point. It’ll add variety to your barking. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/11 "2023-12-21T15:00:31Z")
The original Eve Online trailer. Carebears watch and weep… [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/e/1/0e1df1685812c1e56f4170d0ce0eaac8be3a20cc.jpeg "Original EVE Online Trailer (2003)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwpgXFA3UQk) ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/12 "2023-12-21T15:01:43Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Actually dude, you mostly seem to be interested in yapping and snarling on the forums. Answering the points of someone who’s just here to bark louder than the other dogs isn’t something I do. and to be the loudest dog you could shown us the real facts with sources if you wanna bring it ! instead you just bring points with no evaluation and then youre mad about ppl who argue against you ? btw … nobody can know everything and maybe i simply dont know about something you say ? ( oh look something else then en exclamation mark ) but instead to show and source of your argument you decide to attack me and say i´m a dog who only barks in forums ! youre a perfect example of a person who only bring his own point of view as a fact and then if someone asked if its true, youre the dog who wants to bark at loudest but dont show any source ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Also, I realize English isn’t your first language (at least I truly hope it isn’t), but you should try to learn another piece of punctuation beyond the exclamation point. i simply ignore it 😉 i like the this vertical sign wich stands upright more then the sign that lay down on the ground ! . ? > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It’ll add variety to your barking. you just tryed to bark louder xD but dont proofe anything ! until you proofed it, its only in your head ! ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/13 "2023-12-21T15:15:01Z")
> [@Calamity\_Unleashed](#): > > CCP says they have a vision for the future of EvE. I’ll be sticking around since I’m curious but I’m already impressed with what I’ve seen so far. I’m not impressed with the growing trend of CCP controlling the storyline of the alleged ‘sandbox’. Ever more ‘events’ and PvE and nannying of people into shooting CCP sandcastles…as if PvP is just an afterthought. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/14 "2023-12-21T15:21:12Z")
> [@Done25](#): > > I mean, they’d probably be right? Eve is a very complex game. One where the punishments can be _very_ harsh. Both of which combined can serve to chase off players before they manage to settle in and acclimate. I’ve long argued that new players should be confined to some holding area for up to 30 days. They _have_ to leave for ‘Eve proper’ after 30 days, but can voluntarily leave before that if they want. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/15 "2023-12-21T15:35:32Z")
Ninety-five percent of the people who post here would absolutely lose their ■■■■ if they had to play EVE from twenty years ago. Including every single alt-posting forum whiner who laments on a daily basis about the whatever-fest EVE “has become.” They just have _no idea._ ---
**Author:** ![Calamity\_Unleashed](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/calamity_unleashed/32/413414_2.png) [@Calamity\_Unleashed](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Calamity_Unleashed)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/16 "2023-12-21T15:41:02Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > I’m not impressed with the growing trend of CCP controlling the storyline of the alleged ‘sandbox’ I don’t usually pay attention to a sandbox’s storyline. Especially when a storyline is contrary to the idea of sandbox and is only designed to facilitate and maximize profit for the game owners. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Ever more ‘events’ and PvE and nannying of people into shooting CCP sandcastles No one forces players to participate in the nanny-carousel and the PvP that happens in the game is not hindered. CCP gives options to the players and I think it’s fine. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > as if PvP is just an afterthought It’s not an afterthought, that’s CCP’s bread’n’butter. ---
**Author:** ![Eney\_Issier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eney_issier/32/472040_2.png) [@Eney\_Issier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eney_Issier)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/17 "2023-12-21T15:42:49Z")
A game is not easy to design, I tried myself in 2d pixel style. - A vision is often “look at that game (genre) I want to do something similar” - It requires an engine or work on one - It requires a lot of mechanics from collsion detection to availability of upgrades for the avatar - It requires a massive ton of artwork done in a graphic desing program with rudimentary knowledge on colour theory and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/18 "2023-12-21T16:18:44Z")
> [@Vuhdo\_Rin](#): > > nobody can know everything and maybe i simply dont know about something you say All right, well not knowing something and being open to learning about it is valid. The problem is that I can’t really educate you on 20 years of CCP/EVE history. You’ll have to do a lot of research yourself if you want to know more. A good place to start: > **[CCP Games](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCP_Games)** > > CCP hf., doing business as CCP Games (short for Crowd Control Productions), is an Icelandic video game developer based in Reykjavík. Novator Partners and General Catalyst had previously collectively owned a majority stake in the company, and in September 2018, CCP was acquired by South Korean video game publisher Pearl Abyss for $425 million. CCP Games is best known for developing Eve Online, which was released in 2003 and has since been maintained. > CCP Games was founded in June 1997 by Reyni... Which features the quote: “On 28 August 2014, CCP Games shut down its San Francisco studio to refocus their efforts on _EVE Online_ . At the same time, CFO Joe Gallo and CMO David Reid resigned. As of 2015, none of CCP Games’ original founders were still with the company.” Hilmar, the current CEO, does go back to the very early days, but if I recall correctly I think he was the networking/hardware guy and not a game designer. He basically ended up as CEO because everyone else had better things to do. The comings and goings of key and popular devs at CCP has been public news for years. As have the various rounds of layoffs, restructuring, teams being created and removed, etc. Other articles that might help bring you up to speed: > **[Meet the Eve Online creator who CCP left behind](https://www.eurogamer.net/meet-thor-beck-the-eve-creator-who-ccp-left-behind)** > > Thorolfur Beck has enjoyed - or perhaps we should say endured - an intriguing career trajectory. He's been a global amb… > **[World of Darkness - the inside story on the death of a game](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf)** > > This April, the long-awaited multiplayer game World of Darkness was cancelled. Ian G Williams explores how bad management hubris wasted nearly a decade of work You might also look up articles on all the failed, attempted or aborted games CCP has given up on (Dust 514, Valkyrie, Gunjack, various shooters etc.). And “Summer of Rage”. And you might learn along the way that Alpha/free clones weren’t created to “give players a better view of EVE” - it was created to boost player numbers in 2016 because they were crashing hard, and they needed a way to make the company look better so they could sell it. ![EVE_Pre-Alpha_PCU_Drop](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/1/a/2/1a2f07d31a3954d275ad413984330b5971090d31.png) Go take a look at the EVE Offline Tranquility chart, and get an idea what happened with player numbers before and after Aug.2016. I’ve covered all these and more topics in previous posts, it’s not really practical to link the sources for everything again and again in every post. People who’ve been around more than 10 years know what I’m referring to. Whether they agree with my viewpoint on it is a different question. The truth is out there, but nobody’s obligated to wrap it up and hand it to you for free. If you want to challenge someone who’s been around longer and knows more of the history, start doing some of your own homework. ---
**Author:** ![Vuhdo\_Rin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vuhdo_rin/32/378868_2.png) [@Vuhdo\_Rin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vuhdo_Rin)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/19 "2023-12-21T16:56:45Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Which features the quote: “On 28 August 2014, CCP Games shut down its San Francisco studio to refocus their efforts on _EVE Online_ . At the same time, CFO Joe Gallo and CMO David Reid resigned. As of 2015, none of CCP Games’ original founders were still with the company.” which was a result of the flop of “world of darkness” this means this project is dead and they dont need their employees for this location … its hard for all the employees but its not a “recovering mode” its normal state of the art … you have aproduct thats not good then you are ending the existance of this product ! unless you have another product you could create you dont need this location anymore because it only costs a lot of $ but dont let you earn some $ ! btw … ive noticed it but i dont care because it wasnt about eve online … and it does not effect eve online ! [CCP Games closes San Francisco office, loses two key executives | PC Gamer](https://www.pcgamer.com/ccp-games-closes-san-francisco-office-loses-two-key-executives/) > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The comings and goings of key and popular devs at CCP has been public news for years. As have the various rounds of layoffs, restructuring, teams being created and removed, etc. Other articles that might help bring you up to speed: > > [Meet the Eve Online creator who CCP left behind | Eurogamer.net](https://www.eurogamer.net/meet-thor-beck-the-eve-creator-who-ccp-left-behind) this shows me only 1 dude which was fired ! he didnt go by himself … and to get fired it was his own mistake … if it was the right decision → maybe, maybe not ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > [World of Darkness - the inside story on the death of a game | Games | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/05/world-of-darkness-the-inside-story-mmo-ccp-white-wolf) > > You might also look up articles on all the failed, attempted or aborted games CCP has given up on (Dust 514, Valkyrie, Gunjack, various shooters etc.). And “Summer of Rage”. And you might learn along the way that Alpha/free clones weren’t created to “give players a better view of EVE” - it was created to boost player numbers in 2016 because they were crashing hard, and they needed a way to make the company look better so they could sell it. this is about other games then eve online … dont care about this ! but i´m still mission all the dudes which leaves CCP because they were bored and dissatisfied oO you only showed that sometimes you have an employee fluctuation in your company but this is realy standart ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > ![EVE_Pre-Alpha_PCU_Drop](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/1/a/2/1a2f07d31a3954d275ad413984330b5971090d31.png) > > Go take a look at the EVE Offline Tranquility chart, and get an idea what happened with player numbers before and after Aug.2016. i know what happens … if they release alphas the playerbase extremly raised again ! but it slowly drops after ppl see that alphas are not the way to go ! do you know why ccp left their player ? because of a few unpopular decisions like fozzie sov ! THIS is an example of a bad mechanic … i hate to say it but → better then the old as you had SBU´s … but it is significantly less popular [Summer of Sov - Nullsec PVE and Upgrades | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/summer-of-sov-nullsec-pve-and-upgrades) > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I’ve covered all these and more topics in previous posts, it’s not really practical to link the sources for everything again and again in every post. but you can quote it or link a thread ! its not that hard … > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > People who’ve been around more than 10 years know what I’m referring to. like me ? i´m played since 2012 ! but still see things way different then you are ! still a lower playerbase doesnt look like CCP failed at eve online ! its a great game ! we wouldnt play it if its not ! > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The truth is out there, but nobody’s obligated to wrap it up and hand it to you for free. If you want to challenge someone who’s been around longer and knows more of the history, start doing some of your own homework. so many ppl say they know the truth ! but they simply dont know it … btw … i dont know how long youre been to eve but i challange everybody if i think its ■■■■■■■■ ! like i said before … nobody can know everything and sometimes you simply forget things you decide they are not important for you like me and world of darkness ! btw … why should i do work if you imply you have the source on hand and only need a link to it ? why do i need to search the whole internet about the source you already have ? just link your source and we all can improve our knowledge ! ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337/20 "2023-12-21T17:25:18Z")
It was said above, but after this post it clearly needs to be said again. You really need to slow down and edit these posts, nobody is going to read this. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/framing/433337.md?page=2)