# Freighter Design Pass **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [April 18, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538 "2019-04-18T10:40:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ms\_Steak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ms_steak/32/168834_2.png) [@Ms\_Steak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ms_Steak)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2019, 11:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/21 "2019-04-18T23:09:39Z")
> [@Nuuri\_Naarian](#): > > You cant fix them like that, but you can make it harder to be killed. Thats the point - you have never explained WHY they need to be “fixed” or what you think is wrong with them. And that applies to most(all) of your ideas. Change for the sake of change is not a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Nuuri\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nuuri_naarian/32/131735_2.png) [@Nuuri\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nuuri_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/22 "2019-04-18T23:16:47Z")
> [@Ms\_Steak](#): > > Thats the point - you have never explained WHY they need to be “fixed” or what you think is wrong with them. And that applies to most(all) of your ideas. Change for the sake of change is not a good thing. I explained it many times, however, you just dont want to accept my explanation because you are incapable of expressing discontent or disagreement. Instead of saying that i did not explain, say “i dont agree with your position, here’s why,…” My explanation for it, is because it is abusive to traders, invalidates a form of content, and causes people to leave the game. ---
**Author:** ![Nuuri\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nuuri_naarian/32/131735_2.png) [@Nuuri\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nuuri_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/23 "2019-04-18T23:18:47Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Because they are an amazing game dev Thanks for so much recognition, i am glad we can come to the mutually agreeable conclusion ---
**Author:** ![Tater-nuts](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tater-nuts/32/189043_2.png) [@Tater-nuts](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tater-nuts)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2019, 11:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/24 "2019-04-18T23:45:22Z")
I have a character that is a freighter pilot that hauls 1000’s of couriers/year and these changes are stupid. I have no problem running very high collateral contracts through the choke points and haven’t been caught in almost 4 years. The reason CODE succeed is due to dumb freighter pilots, not the fact that freighters need to be changed in some way. No matter how you change freighters or any other ship, you will still find dumb pilots that are too lazy to protect themselves and as a result, die. Your limited experience as an EvE player and especially as a freighter pilot show though in flying colors with your terrible ideas. A HUGE -1 ---
**Author:** ![Nuuri\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nuuri_naarian/32/131735_2.png) [@Nuuri\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nuuri_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/25 "2019-04-18T23:52:17Z")
> [@Tater-nuts](#): > > I have a character that is a freighter pilot that hauls 1000’s of couriers/year Link Contract list, or im calling bs. > [@Tater-nuts](#): > > The reason CODE succeed is due to dumb freighter pilots, If this is as you state, then its a design problem and needs to be addressed still. If everyone but 1-2% get it, it probably needs a difficulty nerf, especially when its the pinnacle of end game for a type of content in eve. Im sorry, But “get good” “leave the game” are not valid arguments for me, and i will reject them, and declare them “invalid” and “useless stupidity” as long as people advocate for them. They do nothing to help the game and they do nothing to help ccp as a company. Plus i can make an even stronger argument by saying “or we can just nerf it and everyone will get it, you keep being efficient and safe, they can do this content, and everyone can maybe or maybe not die”. ---
**Author:** ![Tater-nuts](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tater-nuts/32/189043_2.png) [@Tater-nuts](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tater-nuts)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/26 "2019-04-18T23:55:48Z")
I will not out my hauler. Do the math superstar, 1000 is only 3 contracts per day. You’ve been in Hauler’s Channel, you know that some of us haul all day. ---
**Author:** ![Nuuri\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nuuri_naarian/32/131735_2.png) [@Nuuri\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nuuri_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/27 "2019-04-18T23:58:19Z")
Tater, you seem like a nice guy so i’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, however we all recognize this as an exceptional accomplishment to boast of no freighter deaths. This is definitely not something every new player or moderately progressed player can do. Ergo, the skill cap is to high and needs a nerf. On the flip side, if we argue this from codes perspective, it also needs a nerf (its abusive content). ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 12:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/28 "2019-04-19T00:12:14Z")
Why should end game content be easy. Your arguments contradict each other. End game content should be hard. ---
**Author:** ![Nuuri\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nuuri_naarian/32/131735_2.png) [@Nuuri\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nuuri_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/29 "2019-04-19T00:21:08Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > End game content should be hard. I dont disagree. however, it should not be hard so that only 1% Get it. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/30 "2019-04-19T00:22:26Z")
Clearly far more than 1%fly freighters just fine. It’s more like 1% fail at it. ---
**Author:** ![Nuuri\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nuuri_naarian/32/131735_2.png) [@Nuuri\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nuuri_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/31 "2019-04-19T00:30:51Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Clearly far more than 1%fly freighters just fine. It’s more like 1% fail at it. And yet you claim that is the case when an entire alliances existence depends on this type of content. Some how i think your lying. I needs a stone-age bat nerf. ---
**Author:** ![Tater-nuts](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tater-nuts/32/189043_2.png) [@Tater-nuts](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tater-nuts)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/32 "2019-04-19T00:46:45Z")
Your going after the wrong mechanic when it comes to ganking. The mechanic you should be fighting is the bumping mechanic. It allows a few minutes to even 60+ minutes for alts to log in and a gank fleet to form. If the bump mechanic were nerfed or eliminated, it would make gank fleets and players be active in a system. This would eliminate most of today’s freighter ganks and force gankers to hit the target as it entered a system and preform what I call a “live” gank. The Tax Collector guy did “live” ganks with tornadoes for quite some time before switching over to using a bumper. He was very good at catching dst’s especially, but also poorly fit freighters. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/33 "2019-04-19T01:20:25Z")
It’s a pity Red Frog don’t post their Annual Report any longer, because while they aren’t the only hauling service, they are by far the largest and their stats were a good example to demonstrate that while ganking exists, it’s not at a level that is a problem needing to be fixed. Trying to piece some numbers together, from CCP’s spotlight on Red Frog: > **[Community Spotlight: Red Frog Freight | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/article/community-spotlight-red-frog-freight)** > > Moving large amounts of goods from one end of New Eden to the other can be a time consuming, difficult hassle for people. If you can't pilot a freighter yourself, or don't have a friend who can, you might spend days moving ships and equipment from... Back in 2013 when ganking was at a significantly higher rate than it is now, they were completing 8000 jumps per day in highsec. That increased further in 2014 and started to decline, along with the population decline. In 2015 from memory they had about a 10% decline (but I can’t find any number to verify that). In 2015, the rate of failed contracts (all sources including ganks, expired times, theft by freighter pilots) [was 0.27%](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4exezp/red_frog_releases_2015_annual_report/). In 2015, they hauled around 250,000 contracts with freighters in highsec, with an [average of 12 jumps](https://sites.google.com/site/redfrogrecruiting/money-and-taxes) per contract and failed less than 700 contracts across the whole year, w[hile allowing for their pilots to haul AFK](https://sites.google.com/site/redfrogrecruiting/cargo-and-collateral). Since then, ganking has declined (faster than the population in game has declined) and there isn’t a need to give more protection to freighter pilots. The good ones already have all the tools they need to be profitable and the poor ones will continue to die anyway. Hauling is already a safe activity, and definitely doesn’t need to be easier to do AFK. Nevyn has been consistent in arguing for a balance pass based on making a gank more engaging and competitive for both parties (ie. at the moment it is an N+1 calculation and not much for the freighter pilot to do other than die) and if any change is pushed, it should be based on that approach. After all, CCP Fozzie has been pretty clear that [CCP like to pair ganking changes together to maintain the overall balance](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/6334494/#post6334494). ---
**Author:** ![Spitfire1938](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/spitfire1938/32/474648_2.png) [@Spitfire1938](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Spitfire1938)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 2:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/34 "2019-04-19T02:34:21Z")
If your definition of fixing isn’t “harder to be killed”, then what is it? Being invincible in a freighter? ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/35 "2019-04-19T03:15:09Z")
> [@Nuuri\_Naarian](#): > > > [@Tater-nuts](#): > > > > I have a character that is a freighter pilot that hauls 1000’s of couriers/year > > Link Contract list, or im calling bs. [Says the player born less than a week ago.](https://evewho.com/pilot/Nuuri+Naarian) 🙄 Post with your main or GTFO. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/36 "2019-04-19T03:27:27Z")
> [@Nuuri\_Naarian](#): > > > [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > > > Where did you mention faster entering warp times? Or is that what you meant with your “charge requirement” bonus? > > you lost what i ment. ships charge up impulse energy to 75% to enter warp, I am talking about reducing that 75% to a total of 50% of that value at level 5 freighter. meaning you’d charge 37.5% Speed, to warp, not 75%. Ah, okay. I totally didn’t get that meaning from what you initially typed. So, here’s the thing. Put aside for a moment that what you’re asking for is grossly overpowered (you’re asking for freighter align time to be cut by _half_ without any justification) and look at the unintended consequences. If you simply reduce the speed required to get into warp without adjusting agility accordingly, you make yourself _more_ vulnerable to bumping, not less. A good bumper will send a freighter moving pretty fast away from anything alignable, so even if you only need to get to 35% speed to get into warp, if you’re heading very fast the wrong way, you still can’t warp. Your change would almost certainly make freighters _more_ vulnerable to bumping, not less. Not to mention, they’d have a unique, kludge-y mechanic that doesn’t apply to any other ship in the game, which screams of bad game design. You’re a seasoned game designer, right? > [@Nuuri\_Naarian](#): > > > [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > > > Learn2Freight > > This statement tells me you have a mentality not worth debating. im tired of positions like this. I’m not sure why you’re posting on a not-so-subtly-named alt now, but I’m guessing that whatever Naari’s fate was, you’ll be facing it soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/37 "2019-04-19T03:31:46Z")
> [@Nuuri\_Naarian](#): > > Im sorry, But “get good” “leave the game” are not valid arguments for me Too bad, because that’s how the game works. CCP is not going to dumb everything down so even bad players can be handed meaningless “success”. ---
**Author:** ![Nuuri\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nuuri_naarian/32/131735_2.png) [@Nuuri\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nuuri_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/38 "2019-04-19T04:05:11Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Hauling is already a safe activity, and definitely doesn’t need to be easier to do AFK. Again, DEATHS DO NOT CAUSE ECONOMIC SINKS. also i dont base my choices off 5 year old statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 4:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/39 "2019-04-19T04:06:10Z")
> [@Nuuri\_Naarian](#): > > also i dont base my choices off 5 year old statistics. We know. You don’t base them off any at all. No one is talking about economic sinks. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 5:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538/40 "2019-04-19T05:23:49Z")
> [@Nuuri\_Naarian](#): > > also i dont base my choices off 5 year old statistics. We know. You don’t seem to base your choices or opinions off of statistics, or any other kind of fact at all for that matter. Just vague ‘design ideas’ with almost no information on how the current mechanics are working or being used. But what if CCP gave you a look at the statistics and showed you that 999 out of 1000 freighter trips were made safely in highsec? Would you still think they need a massive buff like you proposed in the OP? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighter-design-pass/153538.md?page=3)