# Freighters are too cost effective to suicide gank. Need HP increase **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [February 4, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169 "2020-02-04T15:19:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![FairyTail\_Omaristos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fairytail_omaristos/32/145000_2.png) [@FairyTail\_Omaristos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/FairyTail_Omaristos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/407 "2020-02-06T20:40:08Z")
> [@Hi\_I\_m\_Dave](#): > > But this is my alt for my anti-gank persona. My ganking characters would look silly posting this. Bc coward. > [@Hi\_I\_m\_Dave](#): > > isn’t strictly limited to anti-gankers. Not pro-ganker or anti-ganker. I’m anti-moron. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_I\_m\_Dave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hi_i_m_dave/32/275237_2.png) [@Hi\_I\_m\_Dave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hi_I_m_Dave)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/409 "2020-02-06T20:41:28Z")
Daphne, hold my calls. Someone on the internet is wrong. ![Untitled](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/e/1/e1d01a33ab1136f925f909261496ccd25bfc5384.png) ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_I\_m\_Dave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hi_i_m_dave/32/275237_2.png) [@Hi\_I\_m\_Dave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hi_I_m_Dave)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/410 "2020-02-06T20:42:28Z")
> [@FairyTail\_Omaristos](#): > > I’m anti-moron Good luck with that, friend. ---
**Author:** ![Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neivasta_keja_vos/32/183832_2.png) [@Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neivasta_Keja_vos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/411 "2020-02-06T20:42:39Z")
There is no 100% counter to ganking, but there’s a lot you can do to prevent being that target. That’s the fun part, undock and pray you make it back alive. ---
**Author:** ![Ugren\_Okaski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ugren_okaski/32/181459_2.png) [@Ugren\_Okaski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ugren_Okaski)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/412 "2020-02-06T20:44:08Z")
> [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > I’d hardly call freighter ganking pvp. Do you think that freighter pilots are not players? Do you think that gankers are not players? ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/413 "2020-02-06T20:46:46Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > No, it takes more alts. Or people. Unless youre saying that it is impossible, per game mechanics, for you to gank with actual people, and you must use alts, then the answer is not “no”, it is “Or”. Please, be honest. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Assuming you scoop none of your own dropped modules. So if you pick an expensive form of ganking and scoop none of your own modules it costs about 1.5 freighters to gank a max tank empty freighter. Not exactly, but ill let it slide. Sure. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > But at about 1/10 the cost. In fact if you go with even more alts in T1 catas, you can bring that cost down even further. Well, no, a T2 catalyst costs anywhere from 10 to 12 million isk. So even 30 of those is 300 million isk, easy, which is not 1/10th the cost of a billion isk freighter. But sure, although you may need more players, you could do it in T1 catas. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > There is no balance. CCP have not balanced ganking in any way and as such it’s all over the place. It’s easy to do, it’s cheap to do and it’s so formulaic that there’s almost no risk involved. Yes, there is. if youre using Alts, every single alt needs to be an Omega. If youre using physical players, you need atleast 30 players, for the cheapest option atleast. It takes 30 players(or alts) to take down a single player. in what other game would you say, that exists today, where it would take 30 accounts to take down a single account, a single player of equal or similar level, and where people would ever consider that even remotly balanced towards the 30 players? ---
**Author:** ![Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neivasta_keja_vos/32/183832_2.png) [@Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neivasta_Keja_vos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/415 "2020-02-06T20:52:28Z")
The reason I don’t haul is because I know how excited my friends get when they see an unescorted industrial show up on dscan. They’re basically a billboard for free loot. ---
**Author:** ![Ugren\_Okaski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ugren_okaski/32/181459_2.png) [@Ugren\_Okaski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ugren_Okaski)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/416 "2020-02-06T20:53:05Z")
> [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > Very useful those are right. 100k hull hp, less than 50k armor hp. Really great choice. Not. So, you want a choice that is both very useful and with no drawbacks. I am afraid EVE does not work that way. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/417 "2020-02-06T20:55:38Z")
> [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > It only takes a matter of a few months to be able to fly one with freighter 4 and maximum core skills. It’s generally [older characters that fly freighters on average](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/gankers-and-freighters-a-request-for-discussion-not-a-bj-rant/61236/22). The vast majority of freighter pilots should know by then, how to keep themself safe. It actually isn’t hard, and as a freighter pilot, there is already so little risk of being ganked that reducing the risk even more just provides more ability to AFK play the hauling part of the game. For those of us that make ISK hauling, reducing the competitive advantage, by CCP making it easier for the lazy, would be terrible game design. A while ago, CCP stated that when they make changes to the balance of ganking, that they like to do so in pairs - a buff in one thing balanced by a nerf in another. The two most recent changes have been nerfs to ganking freighters, so the next change should be if anything, a buff to ganking and not this proposed change. ---
**Author:** ![Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neivasta_keja_vos/32/183832_2.png) [@Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neivasta_Keja_vos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/419 "2020-02-06T21:01:38Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If you want to make it like other games then it should take a minimum of a battleship to even do damage to a freighter. Now we want: More EHP More Slots Modules to break offence Damage Control Mods And nothing short of a BS can shoot them Let’s make them invincible too, and cargo is infinite. Are you seeing my point earlier about where does it end? You keep going further and further into buff hell. ---
**Author:** ![Ugren\_Okaski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ugren_okaski/32/181459_2.png) [@Ugren\_Okaski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ugren_Okaski)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/420 "2020-02-06T21:07:24Z")
> [@Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](#): > > Let’s make them invincible too, and cargo is infinite. Which would actually be bad for most freighter pilots, since they would not be useful in this scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/422 "2020-02-06T21:09:35Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If you want to make it like other games then it should take a minimum of a battleship to even do damage to a freighter. I don’t think EVE becoming like other games is a thing to aspire to personally. However, the idea that the size of a ship should determine which ships can be engaged is a slippery slope to nowhere good. The number of ships is where the current balance lies, but a large fleet of small ships can still take down a Carrier, etc. If it became a requirement that frigates can only engage up to battlecruiser, etc. that wouldn’t be anything positive for the game. People working together is what is good for the game. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/423 "2020-02-06T21:12:24Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > A full bulkhead freighter still costs less to gank than the cost of even an empty freighter. It’s ludicrously cheap to gank. How come you don’t understand that it doesn’t matter? If I kill a ship in low with just drones it is free. Cost to kill is not a real issue. ---
**Author:** ![Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neivasta_keja_vos/32/183832_2.png) [@Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neivasta_Keja_vos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/424 "2020-02-06T21:13:00Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Hey, if it gets rid of some of the more disgusting elements of this community Just because you don’t agree with the way someone plays a game doesn’t make them disgusting parts of the community. There are players I absolutely hate seeing, because they make my life miserable. But I appreciate that they get to play however they want, just as I can play how I want. ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/425 "2020-02-06T21:14:19Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I think it’s farily obvious that we’re talking minimu requirements, and I consider an alt to be a lower requirement than an additional player. Your claim that it takes more players makes it sound much more of a challenge than it actually is. Yes, you can substitue alts with players if you want but it takes more alts at a minimum. its subjective as to which is higher or lower as a requirement. With Alts, you need to pay plex or Cash, you need to manually input since multibox input broadcasting is now banned, etc etc. Its easier in terms of the effort it takes for each player, when you have multiple players, but its also a hassle to bring more players in. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > 1/10th the cost of a talos. You said you can gank with 2-3 times the amount of catalysts compared to the talos, I was pointing out that the cost goes down even though the number of ships goes up. I assume you’re also only considering instant market prices, which any large scale ganker is not going to be paying. Oh, okay, I wasnt aware you were referring to the talos and not the freighter. Sure. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Nope. Every _account_ needs to be an omega. That means that a spare slot on each account can be used for gank alts. My gank alts are on the third slot of 16 SP farm accounts. Well, again, not “nope”. The account is an extension of an Alt character, so yes, every single alt, and by extension, the account, needs to be omega. You can have an account that is omega, without an alt inside, but you cannot have an alt that is omega, without being in an account. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > EVE isn’t like other games. And they aren’t similar levels. One is in a capital ship and the 30 are in destroyers with a minimal set of skills built around one specific set of guns. If you were playing most other MMOs and you ran 30 newbie characters up to a character that was at a near end-game level, they’d probably not even be able to deal them damage. If you want to make it like other games then it should take a minimum of a battleship to even do damage to a freighter. Okay, if you dont like that comparison, then ill just break down the rest of what you said as to the reasons why you think there is no balance. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s easy to do Which takes more effort and coordination? Gathering a bunch of people, up to 30, or multiboxing a bunch of alts, up to 30, to gank a target, or having a single, or 2, accounts, alts, or friends, logi/web you? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > it’s cheap to do Which costs more. 2-3 accounts plexed, or paid for by cash, or 30 accounts paid for by cash or plexed? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > it’s so formulaic that there’s almost no risk involved. The mitigation of risk by freighter pilots, is up to the freighter pilot. Again, CCP Falcon said it best: > [@CCP Falcon](#): > > If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don’t have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you. ---
**Author:** ![Lucia\_Clover](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucia_clover/32/184851_2.png) [@Lucia\_Clover](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucia_Clover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/427 "2020-02-06T21:29:38Z")
> [@Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](#): > > There is no 100% counter to ganking, but there’s a lot you can do to prevent being that target. > > That’s the fun part, undock and pray you make it back alive. Hauling in a mega slow ass ship that can only fit a total of 3 modules from a very limited pool of modules is fun? You just look ridicluous now. Thank you for highlighting another reason why freighters need a buff, and probably a re-vamp. They are boring, uninspired ships long overdue for an update. ---
**Author:** ![Lucia\_Clover](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucia_clover/32/184851_2.png) [@Lucia\_Clover](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucia_Clover)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/429 "2020-02-06T21:35:23Z")
> [@Ugren\_Okaski](#): > > > [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > > > Very useful those are right. 100k hull hp, less than 50k armor hp. Really great choice. Not. > > So, you want a choice that is both very useful and with no drawbacks. I am afraid EVE does not work that way. Yes it does. Combat ships can fit all kinds of modules without drawbacks. Why must cargo expanders reduce your hull HP so greatly? Why must bulkheads reduce your cargo? Do shield hardeners reduce your DPS? Do magnetic field stabs reduce your HP? They increase your DPS significantly, but don’t reduce your tank? Where is the tradeoff? There is none. Only freighter pilots must put up with choosing between the extreme end of more hull or more cargo. Boost one, and you always take a hit to the other when piloting a freighter. ---
**Author:** ![Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neivasta_keja_vos/32/183832_2.png) [@Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neivasta_Keja_vos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/430 "2020-02-06T21:38:45Z")
> [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > Hauling in a mega slow ass ship that can only fit a total of 3 modules from a very limited pool of modules is fun? You just look ridicluous now. I’d only look that way if for example I was whining on a thread about how unfair my personal choice of gameplay was. ---
**Author:** ![Ugren\_Okaski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ugren_okaski/32/181459_2.png) [@Ugren\_Okaski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ugren_Okaski)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/431 "2020-02-06T21:43:15Z")
> [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > Do shield hardeners reduce your DPS? They don’t, but they do need a lot of capacitor energy. Freighter modules are passive. > [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > Do magnetic field stabs reduce your HP? They don’t, but you can use the same slot for armor hardener, which does increase your HP. > [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > They increase your DPS significantly, but don’t reduce your tank? Where is the tradeoff? You cannot install more tank with them. Just like with a freighter. ---
**Author:** ![Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neivasta_keja_vos/32/183832_2.png) [@Neivasta\_Keja\_vos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neivasta_Keja_vos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169/433 "2020-02-06T21:45:24Z")
> [@Lucia\_Clover](#): > > Why must cargo expanders reduce your hull HP so greatly? Why must bulkheads reduce your cargo? Because physics… Bulkheads take up space, therefore less room for cargo. Cargo Expanders push the interior of the ship more towards the outer shell, therefore thinner hull. The ship size doesn’t change, so the extra space or defensive capability has to come from somewhere. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169.md?page=19) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/freighters-are-too-cost-effective-to-suicide-gank-need-hp-increase/217169.md?page=21)