# From Extraction To Production: Update **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Created:** [November 20, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887 "2021-11-20T00:08:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 132
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 6:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2675 "2021-12-14T06:53:25Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > That’s hypocritical. I think I’m struggling to work out what your point actually is, Zhalyd. it sounds as if you dislike my assertion that I don’t like EVE players going AFK in space. If that’s the case, fine. We disagree. No big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2676 "2021-12-14T07:00:50Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > The point is that those activities are designed to have waiting periods. Duration of the industry job, a rate at which your planetary extractors fill the landing pad. That design promotes AFK-ness. Again: Why is being AFK and get rewarded fine with those activities when it’s not fine in others? > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > This devalues the time of players who they are competing with. The same goes for the second list of activities. People can just set their AFK orders on the market at a “competitive price” and require me, who is more active and updates orders to stay on top (which is mandatory to sell anything) to undercut them and gain less profits than them while investing more time. Same goes for industry if people just put in weeks worth of jobs and in the end can just flood my orders. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Yes, industry may have issues too, but that is not the point here. It is not? AFK in industry is fine then, just because it _was designed that way_ but mining AFK with drones or ratting AFK with drones is not even though drones _were designed for independent activity so that you don’t have to watch them all the time_? Moreover, your industry or market or even PI afk-ness only carries ridiculously low risk of failure while afk mining or ratting in space carries a significant risk of failure – all while you can generate ridiculous profits with said afk activities. That’s fine because it’s by design. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2677 "2021-12-14T07:02:41Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > That design promotes AFK-ness. Again: Why is being AFK and get rewarded fine with those activities when it’s not fine in others? Because it is _designed_ to be played that way. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2678 "2021-12-14T07:04:51Z")
Drones are designed that way as well. Oh, and the last time CCP tried to change that, they only created more annoying, frustrating gameplay experience in the process. Which brings me back to how CCP does not want more enjoyable gameplay when they make activities _more active_. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2679 "2021-12-14T07:09:37Z")
Drones are a weapon system and fighting is not designed to be fire, log out, come back next day to see profits. I feel like I’m talking in circles here. What is the point you’re trying to make? Are you trying to say ‘afk gameplay is bad, but look at industry and PI, those are bad too’? Or is it ‘afk gameplay isn’t bad, look at industry it also allows you to profit while asleep’? ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2680 "2021-12-14T07:11:43Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Because mining is not nearly as rewarding as either activity? It would be more rewarding if the afk crowd wouldn’t be a vast majority of the miners. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2681 "2021-12-14T07:21:17Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > What is the point you’re trying to make? My point is that you can’t have it both ways. If you don’t like AFK drone mining or ratting but don’t have a problem with AFK industry or markets, while both activities were designed with reduced attention requirements in mind, you are not honest. If AFK is an issue, it is always an issue, regardless whether a feature was _designed one way or another_. > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > It would be more rewarding if the afk crowd wouldn’t be a vast majority of the miners. Then CCP should have changed mining so that baseline mining can be done AFK or however you want, while high level mining should have been a newly designed gameplay element that requires attentive interaction. As said far above: they should have used their decoupling strategy for mining as well. That would have (probably) created more enjoyable gameplay with bigger rewards while not creating frustration for the the low level mining. But CCP instead chose to pair frustration with lack of new gameplay. Besides: I am an avid gas miner and a few weeks ago after the industry changes I required my competition to be extremely attentive. But it didn’t change the fact that gas prices are now in the gutter simply because they had more people and flooded the market with gas. Requiring something to “not be afk” doesn’t make anything more rewarding if only enough people can crash the markets with oversupply. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2682 "2021-12-14T07:24:43Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > My point is that you can’t have it both ways. Well yes I can. One of them is designed to have a waiting period, the other is problematic afk gameplay. Easy as that. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2683 "2021-12-14T07:25:56Z")
You really can’t stop whining can you. They have been making changes that made active mining better paying and you whined about each and everyone of them. All you DO is whine, regardless of the subject. That also means that there is no reason to keep reading your stuff as it’s nothing but terribleness, all the time. Go find another emotional punching bag, I cba with it. Blocked, should have done this sooner. Life is better this way. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2684 "2021-12-14T07:27:46Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > I don’t like EVE players going AFK in space. So…Which is wrong - 10 gate campers in lowsec, 9 of whom are AFK till a victim jumps in OR 10 gankers in highsec, 9 of whom are sitting in a station AFK waiting for a victim to jump in. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2685 "2021-12-14T07:30:08Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Well yes I can. > > One of them is designed to have a waiting period, the other is problematic afk gameplay. Obviously you do, and that means you are not honest. Easy as that and thanks for that. > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > All you DO is whine, regardless of the subject. If valid complaints about lackluster, unimaginative, frustration creating gameplay is “whining” for you, you are welcome to block me. I don’t want you to waste your time with coming up with lies and dishonesty to my criticism and constructive feedback. 🙂 ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2686 "2021-12-14T07:30:53Z")
To a degree yes, but they are still on call to get ready within seconds (meaning they are not afk at all) which is _very_ different from what many miners do. It’s not even slightly the same, don’t pretend that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2687 "2021-12-14T07:32:21Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > but they are still on call to get ready within seconds which is _very_ different So are AFK miners and AFK ratters when something is reported in their intel channels. And if they are not, they are risking to die because they don’t respond. Hypocritical, as said. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2688 "2021-12-14T07:32:37Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Besides: I am an avid gas miner and a few weeks ago after the industry changes I required my competition to be extremely attentive. But it didn’t change the fact that gas prices are now in the gutter simply because they had more people and flooded the market with gas. Requiring something to “not be afk” doesn’t make anything more rewarding if only enough people can crash the markets with oversupply. You have a habit of thowing all problems onto one big pile, don’t you? I fully agree that making gas huffing available to barges is an issue for the profitability of frigate gas huffing. And I think it’s a shame this profitable activity has been taken from the expedition frigates. (Especially with the broken T2 barge gas huffer rate). However this has nothing to do with the other issue that is AFK gameplay. ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2689 "2021-12-14T07:33:56Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > My point is that you can’t have it both ways. If you don’t like AFK drone mining or ratting but don’t have a problem with AFK industry or markets, while both activities were designed with reduced attention requirements in mind, you are not honest. Oh dear lord………… One is designed as passive income stream. The other isnt. But the biggest difference related to these that I haven’t seen mentioned yet, and why AFK becomes an issue, is………. Drumroll…… Somebody that sets an industry job and goes to watch Netflix while it completes doesn’t get blown up and insist that game mechanics need to change to facilitate them being afk. The big issue for me at least isn’t that someone is afk. That’s their choice. It’s that the refuse accept the consequences of being afk. Then they shout very very loudly about bad mechanics and CCP respond with changes which ………well you know about changes…… you lose your mind when the change a font. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2690 "2021-12-14T07:43:36Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > However this has nothing to do with the other issue that is AFK gameplay. Of course it does. It is one of many examples where “requiring active gameplay” does not end up with higher rewards or more enjoyable gameplay. And that’s all this talk is about. That active is supposed to be better and/or more rewarding. It is not. At least not as long as CCP does not create specific gameplay features specifically designed for more active gameplay and carefully develops them so that they don’t become oppressive. Abyss space is a great example for such a development. It required more active gameplay and generated ridiculous profits in return. But CCP didn’t design it till the end and in particular moved away from the initial subgoal of reducing Gila oppressiveness in ratting. Now it has already devolved into an easy to farm activity that also carries much less risk. CCP has all but stopped iterating on abyss space, despite them promising that this space should always be unpredictable and unsolvable to keep it interesting and fresh and hard to farm. Making carriers and supers active ratters in standard anomalies, however, was not a good design choice at all. It put a new and enormously powerful active farming tool into an environment for which this environment was never designed for. As results these new tools first flooded the economy with ridiculous amounts of ISK and then CCP ruined this kind of ratting for all other ships by introducing timers. That does not generate enjoyable gameplay, it creates frustrating gameplay. Changing Rorquals into massively oppressive mining boats requiring “active” excavator management for an environment that never was designed for these ships or this level of parallisation spelled doom to the mineral market. By design, mind you. CCP again didn’t design specific environments for these ships to work in without breaking the economy. And now they are turning Rorquals and Orcas into unrewarding tedium machines without any redeeming values for their cost. Rings a bell? If this means that I am “whining all the time”, I gladly keep drowning all of you in my salty tears – until CCP changes their design philosophies and actually starts thinking before they act and introduce more rubbish. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Kylanti\_Hendar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kylanti_hendar/32/385538_2.png) [@Kylanti\_Hendar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kylanti_Hendar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 7:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2691 "2021-12-14T07:58:06Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > People can just set their AFK orders on the market at a “competitive price” and require me, who is more active and updates orders to stay on top (which is mandatory to sell anything) to undercut them and gain less profits than them while investing more time This is not true, it only matters if you want your stuff to sell quickly. Most items in the market rise and fall repeatedly through the year, if you want to get a higher price for your item, normally all you have to do is wait - so long as the price you have chosen is reasonable and the price does not reset to a different value. ---
**Author:** ![Oskar\_Milde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oskar_milde/32/396309_2.png) [@Oskar\_Milde](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oskar_Milde)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 8:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2692 "2021-12-14T08:30:41Z")
I have discovered a simple solution Zhalyd. If you wish to be able to leave focus on Eve for a time, perhaps you should try getting into industry? Then you can leave the mining to the active miners. Problem solved! Seriously though, there’s gameplay for all in Eve, this major update changes what gameplay may be suited to you in your particular situation. Have a play with the new mechanics, work out what is best for you, and you’re golden. ---
**Author:** ![Snowflake\_Tem](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/snowflake_tem/32/432971_2.png) [@Snowflake\_Tem](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Snowflake_Tem)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 8:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2693 "2021-12-14T08:36:23Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > I gladly keep drowning all of you in my salty tears – until CCP changes their design philosophies and actually starts thinking before they act and introduce more rubbish. Boom away. Actively reaching the for the block button in order to reduce noise is a valid response. EVE [expeto verto exsaturabilis] changes because it has to; the system is compelled to respond to its users. It is **not** required to change for the better at any given time, but it **has** been shown to improve generally. CCP knows things we don’t; searching for an overarching pattern that makes sense to you is much more fun than “whining”. ``The degradation of the “productive” classes is not limited to EVE and is fascinatingly coincident with global policy. `` ---
**Author:** ![Chan\_aar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/chan_aar/32/377560_2.png) [@Chan\_aar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Chan_aar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 8:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/2694 "2021-12-14T08:59:43Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Which brings me back to how CCP does not want more enjoyable gameplay when they make activities _more active_. I don’t think it is the case that they (CCP) don’t **want** to make things more enjoyable. It is just that they don’t know **how** to make things more enjoyable. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=131) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=133)