# From Extraction To Production: Update **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Created:** [November 20, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887 "2021-11-20T00:08:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Fartsniffer\_Munba](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fartsniffer_munba/32/248389_2.png) [@Fartsniffer\_Munba](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fartsniffer_Munba)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/615 "2021-11-20T21:58:47Z")
> [@Shinigami\_Shinda\_s](#): > > But that only counts if you have time limited. > I view it from 10 to 15 chars mining it. (what ccp likes) > And time is no issue:) Those numbers make perfect sense in Polaris, with infinite rocks of all types. CCP has completely missed the point that non-worthless rock availability is a MUCH stronger limitation than anything else combined, and wasting them is non-negotiably not an option. > [@Arrendis](#): > > destroying things almost 5x as fast as they could conceivably mine it? Unfortunately, waste is based on yield, and they have -75% yield modifier, making them delete rocks only 20% faster than type B, while producing 12 times less yield in process. That is useless. Needs to be at least double speed of type B at rock deletion imo. ---
**Author:** ![Moko\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/moko_musana/32/373694_2.png) [@Moko\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Moko_Musana)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/616 "2021-11-20T22:00:16Z")
> [@Andrei\_Rianovski](#): > > #1 : As far as I can see, C-type mining crystals are just anti-productive, wasteful, and also unreliable, offering no actual benefits at all … so why would anybody ever use them? What is their purpose? The only thing I can imagine is to destroy ore for other miners, with -75% yield it looks to me like they’d even be bad at that, so why? Nuke nullsec and wormhole anomality ore that is worthless in order to cause the anomality to deplete and respawn. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/617 "2021-11-20T22:02:54Z")
> [@Fartsniffer\_Munba](#): > > Unfortunately, waste is based on yield, and they have -75% yield modifier, making them delete rocks only 20% faster than type B, while producing 12 times less yield in process. That is useless. Needs to be at least double speed of type B at rock deletion imo. > [@Arrendis](#): > > (Because you get 25, + 475 waste, so a total of 500 comes out of the rock.) Those numbers are based on ‘default’ yield of 100 for the same module. With the T2 Type B crystal, on the ‘base 100’ you’d get 180, in 90% of the time. So if you’re using all T2 (remember: even the T1 crystals need the T2 strip miner), you’re still destroying things 3x as fast. ---
**Author:** ![Eagleklaw](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eagleklaw/32/395397_2.png) [@Eagleklaw](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eagleklaw)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/618 "2021-11-20T22:03:59Z")
why the hell would we be penalized to be get better skills… like oh, hey, you’ll mine faster… but you’re gonna throw away 44% of the 2 month moon pull you did… i’ve seen moons valued at 25B+… you’re gonna double it, and if it jackpots it gets double again… there could be a 100B isk moon pop… and those who saught to increase their mining skills, get penalized by destroying a SUPERS’s worth of materials… what… the… HEL ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/619 "2021-11-20T22:05:58Z")
> [@Shinigami\_Shinda\_s](#): > > And i discribet it above in the idea to have only the a type on the same waste. so if you want to mine faster you make waste (more) 🙂 I mean, the mechanics shouldn’t punish people for using T2 mining gear on R64 moons (and similar rare resources). Mining waste from drones, mining lasers, strip miners = 0%. Type A, same as existing crystals (no waste). Beam is Yellow. Type B, chance of waste but faster cycles. Beam is Blue. Type C, murders rocks with waste. Beam is Red. Newbros can mine without being punished. Vets can get the benefit for months / years of skills. No need to check the ledger to see if someone’s wasting the field. See Yellow or Blue lasers on your moon, pop the ship. Simple, easy, fair. Want to turbo mine, use B & C crystals. Want to clear unneeded ore, use C. ---
**Author:** ![Kenneth\_Feld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenneth_feld/32/435300_2.png) [@Kenneth\_Feld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenneth_Feld)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/620 "2021-11-20T22:07:02Z")
If that is what you took from this, I am sorry I am on the other side - The nerf to Type A crystals will make Tyoe B default for EVERYTING but R64 and maybe 32 - THEN once you are talking B type vs Rorqual - same wastage. - and roughly the same yield - but you can AFK in a rorqual for up to 36 minutes at a time The outcome of this patch is rorquals online forever - barges will get used for a very specific job - R64 and mercoxit - everything else will be rorquals ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/621 "2021-11-20T22:07:02Z")
> [@Eagleklaw](#): > > what… the… HEL I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Eagleklaw](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eagleklaw/32/395397_2.png) [@Eagleklaw](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eagleklaw)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/622 "2021-11-20T22:07:22Z")
things where just fine, and had made good sense when you first released this announcement, and we were excited… knew it was something that was needed to sustain the game… and we were happy to adapt to the challenge… now with these, you went 180 on your resolve to fix the game… and catered to the fireworks in jita… but now all these crystals you plan on making will never see use, because why would we train for weeks to get into t2 crystals to delete 44% of our moons, vs just mining with t1s… STICK to you first plan, and stand by your plan. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/623 "2021-11-20T22:08:44Z")
> [@Kenneth\_Feld](#): > > The nerf to Type A crystals will make Tyoe B default for EVERYTING but R64 and maybe 32 bwahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahah. And this sort of expertise is why PL has been such an industrial powerhouse for exactly no time at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kenneth\_Feld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenneth_feld/32/435300_2.png) [@Kenneth\_Feld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenneth_Feld)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/624 "2021-11-20T22:15:00Z")
So, you would use Type A over B for mining? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/625 "2021-11-20T22:16:34Z")
No. T1 modules and drones all the way. It only takes longer, and it’s not like that doesn’t get mitigated by just running shorter fracks more often. Anything else is _literally_ wasting moongoo/ore/gas. After all, those accounts are already dedicated mining accounts that mine while my real account goes to do other things. ---
**Author:** ![Kenneth\_Feld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenneth_feld/32/435300_2.png) [@Kenneth\_Feld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenneth_Feld)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/626 "2021-11-20T22:18:11Z")
Oh, sorry, I meant within the T2 line - but yes T1 and ORE harvesters will also be popular for R64. I am more worried about the other side of the coin… Would you ever use a Barge with T2/type B with the same wastage as a rorqual over a rorqual? ---
**Author:** ![Tsumi\_Tzestu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tsumi_tzestu/32/289769_2.png) [@Tsumi\_Tzestu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tsumi_Tzestu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/627 "2021-11-20T22:19:25Z")
> [@Kenneth\_Feld](#): > > The outcome of this patch is rorquals online forever - barges will get used for a very specific job - R64 and mercoxit - everything else will be rorquals So china Rorqual numba 1 again. Killing off the Orca so the china Rorqual seems even better than before awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/628 "2021-11-20T22:19:38Z")
> [@Kenneth\_Feld](#): > > Oh, sorry, I meant within the T2 line No, see, that’s just it: the T2 modules won’t be useful at all, because why would you waste your ore/goo? And T1 Strip Miners don’t use crystals at all. So they’re simpler, no chance of degradation, no waste. You get the full value of your anom/moon. Why would you use _anything_ that costs you money? And to be clear: Yeah, I’m calling it for T1 Mining Drones for Rorqs. ---
**Author:** ![Fartsniffer\_Munba](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fartsniffer_munba/32/248389_2.png) [@Fartsniffer\_Munba](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fartsniffer_Munba)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/629 "2021-11-20T22:19:49Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Those numbers are based on ‘default’ yield of 100 for the same module. With the T2 Type B crystal, on the ‘base 100’ you’d get 180, in 90% of the time. So if you’re using all T2 (remember: even the T1 crystals need the T2 strip miner), you’re still destroying things 3x as fast. You’re missing that type B also has 20% cycle bonus. I did unbuffed Hulk math on 100k m3 ore, you’ll need 21.3 minutes to delete it with type B, and 16.8 minutes with type C. The difference is not really significant imo. ---
**Author:** ![Shinigami\_Shinda\_s](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shinigami_shinda_s/32/255865_2.png) [@Shinigami\_Shinda\_s](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shinigami_Shinda_s)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/630 "2021-11-20T22:20:47Z")
Yes i would. Why less waste of the moon ore although you mine less but the community (corp can mine more overall) thats why i dont get why the t1 had not the same as t2 a type since it literally if you do it for the corp it makes 0 sense to use the t2 with as its above besides the ego view. From Personal view on non moon ore i would give you right that i would use B type even with more waste but on stuff you need to actually pay stuff with like moons aint free the community view might be better. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/631 "2021-11-20T22:21:03Z")
No, I worked that in. Remember, you don’t want to build up a lot of ore, because a lot of ore means you need something to carry it in. ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/632 "2021-11-20T22:21:32Z")
> [@Kenneth\_Feld](#): > > The outcome of this patch is rorquals online forever - barges will get used for a very specific job - R64 and mercoxit - everything else will be rorquals I see barges on fields NOW, before they are about to get turbo boosted. They are used in less secure systems or by players saving up for Rorquals. Now you can choose to get about the same ISK/hr with 400m worth of ship (Hulk) or 10b worth of ship (Rorqual). Only difference between mining with either for 36m _AFK_ is how much ore gets blown up with your ship. I think you’ll see more barges, not less, with the changes because the ROI on the barges is SO much better (how long does a 10b Rorq take to pay for itself? How long does a Hulk take to pay for itself?). Higgs anchor your Hulk, warp to field, align out, warp when local spikes, bob’s your uncle. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_thisWolf](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/peter_thiswolf/32/409209_2.png) [@Peter\_thisWolf](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Peter_thisWolf)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/633 "2021-11-20T22:21:55Z")
> [@CCP\_Psych](#): > > All proposed changes to the Venture, Expedition Frigates, and Porpoise are being reverted This is definitely good news. > [@CCP\_Psych](#): > > ## Barges / Exhumers > > Our goal with Barges and Exhumers is to create meaningful choice between survivability, yield, and ore hold. …, but our end goal is to **significantly increase the EHP of all barges and all exhumers as well as their mining yield**. This is good intention, but it still remains to be seen how it will be implemented. I think the Procurer should keep at least the same stats as currently in TQ, including all of the mid slots, and no tank/speed nerf. Waste mechanics: CCP realized how the proposed change was just bad, to the point that the new update shows a 180 deg U-turn in waste direction: from 100% waste to 0% for Tech 1 mods. Now, while this is definitely better than the previous change, it obviously begs the question whether waste mechanics should be in at all: if, in order to fix it, you have to run the opposite way, then is there really any good in it? What puzzles me is that the obvious balance gauges are availability, distribution and yield. Waste acts instead on availability for /other/ miners in the belt - it still sounds twisted to me. ---
**Author:** ![Kenneth\_Feld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenneth_feld/32/435300_2.png) [@Kenneth\_Feld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenneth_Feld)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2021, 10:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/634 "2021-11-20T22:22:24Z")
OK, this is more my overall point - there is no decision R64/32/mercoxit - barge and T1 (I would also used an un nerfed T2/Type A) Everything else - Rorqual [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=30) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=32)