# From Extraction To Production: Update **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Created:** [November 20, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887 "2021-11-20T00:08:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/995 "2021-11-22T17:50:34Z")
> [@Moko\_Musana](#): > > The obvious advantage _should_ be, but _is not_, mobility. A battleship outperforms a dreadnaught at pew-pew-pewing things, Ever heard of HAW dreads? They outperform _any_ BS, including marauders by an order of magnitude. Even without moving, and dreads can’t move anyway with their double digit speed, they can shoot down most things that with their range and most things that can kill it have to stay in their weapon range. If they face a long range fleet, they are dead just like the BS. Contrary to a BS, though, they have the tank to sustain a certain DPS level while they try and kill the tackle. A BS can’t do that. If they are engaged with a little bit more opposition than a single cruiser, they sink like a rock in the ocean. In EVE, bigger is always better – unless the hull has been specifically inhibited for reasons (looking at you, titans, which were the ultimate swiss army knife for a long time after these mind-boggling changes to caps). ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/4/6/5/46546bd503d48e965b38598d40d9a3df4c837f5a.png) ---
**Author:** ![Harley-1998\_Davidson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/harley-1998_davidson/32/390884_2.png) [@Harley-1998\_Davidson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Harley-1998_Davidson)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/996 "2021-11-22T18:22:41Z")
**Orca** boosting [Mastery lvl 5], 3 Skiffs mining ore belt, takes awhile to fill Orca. The Orca has combat drones out guarding the skiffs from NPC belt rats. Mining Command boost going, and the Orca is a for 187,500 m3 in Ore hold, 40,000 m3 Fleet hangar and 33,000 m3 Cargo hold. That’s 260,500 m3 Ore capacity. That’s why Orca’s are good command ships. ---
**Author:** ![Hans\_Devin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hans_devin/32/373511_2.png) [@Hans\_Devin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hans_Devin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 6:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/997 "2021-11-22T18:39:02Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I **wish** that were true because that would imply a sense of game balance, but it’s not. The fundamental truth is that I’m not a carebear, yet I still have more wealth than most of them _despite_ not working EVE like a second job the way they do. Engaging in low-end PvE or low-margin industry for crap pay and lots of effort (at least when _not_ AFK-mining) just doesn’t seem like a very compelling play style. Well said and constructively replied. I’ll dish back in the caste of the latter, you can judge the former. I’ve never understood the obsessions’ of non-miners with Orcas and the dreaded and vastly overstated AFK pilot. This group of people (non-miners) have made wild unsubstantiated and even unknowable claims. One frequent poster claimed he _knew_ there are more Orcas with AFK pilots than those in legitimate fleets. This is simply not knowable. Why are non-miners running around ore belts watching Orcas? They’re not. I spend a lot of time in belts and I see one AFK Orca miner about once every three months. Non-miners have no dog in this fight. Orcas AFK or otherwise, provide minerals for nearly everything they buy. AFK Orcas are the perfect gank target. There is no downside to this alleged phenomenon making the impassioned responses an order of magnitude over the top. There is no reciprocal situation in Eve. There are no ever repeating “threadnaughts” populated by miners commenting many hundreds of times demanding the hobbling of combat ships. and insulting their pilots. Maybe it is an extension of cancel culture, I don’t know. I have broadened my game with missions/exploration and PvP and come to know each has a large portion that is staggeringly boring and repetitive. Having risen to L4 and some L5 missions, marching through them for the 25th time with Marauders feels more like a hampster wheel than game play. Roaming for hours in search of targets to grief, I can say from experience PvP can also be mind numbingly boring and never profitable. Dropping on targets completely out matched offers no personal satisfaction or isk reward. With the same three hours mining, my corpmates and I would have many battleships and T2 modules on the boat to Jita in the coming days ending with a great paycheck. I suppose it all has to do with your need to abuse others and company you choose to keep. Finally, stealing other people’s stuff is just not my thing. So yes, the mentals inexplicitly hang out on mining threads and can’t stop cuz’ miners are Rockstars. ---
**Author:** ![Lugues\_Slive](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugues_slive/32/454530_2.png) [@Lugues\_Slive](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugues_Slive)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/998 "2021-11-22T18:48:19Z")
I was on SiSi testing moon data and it shows standard ore in the moon again. Is this a remnant of pre-ore removal that is still on SiSi or is this new? ---
**Author:** ![WindRider9](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/windrider9/32/280759_2.png) [@WindRider9](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/WindRider9)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/999 "2021-11-22T18:56:06Z")
Just a comment/question for the group. With the new waste mechanic, assuming we are getting roughly the same or better yield, it appears to me that the ore belts would be burned up faster. Is the goal here to force mining fleets to move from system to system? If yes, does this align with the industrial core module anchoring command ships down? Also, doesn’t increasing the power grid and cpu requirements for the industrial core reduce the number of shields we can fit on these ships? ---
**Author:** ![Lugues\_Slive](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugues_slive/32/454530_2.png) [@Lugues\_Slive](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugues_Slive)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1000 "2021-11-22T18:58:23Z")
Totally depends on what they do with belt volume now that they have changed waste mechanic. It use to be twice as much ore and, worst case, twice as much removed per cycle. So it was a wash. Now worst case, not Type C, waste is lower so you always get a net gain. ---
**Author:** ![Astiris\_Lucrent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astiris_lucrent/32/296858_2.png) [@Astiris\_Lucrent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astiris_Lucrent)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1001 "2021-11-22T19:00:43Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > They WANT you to have to make choices where you forego one of the three choices in favour of the other two. Well…Have we seen this before? I mean a gaming company trying to force “meaningful choice” on players sounds familiar… Oh right…it was Blizzard! > **[What is a meaningful choice?](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/what-is-a-meaningful-choice/952918)** > > I watched Ion’s discussion with Preach and Ion doesn’t seem to see the glaring contradictions with the way he described the design of the game. How does blizzard expect us to make any meaningful choice if we get punished for it every time? ... How is that working out for them? > **[Blizzard’s WoW player stats cause more concern about future of the game -...](https://www.dexerto.com/world-of-warcraft/blizzards-wow-player-stats-cause-more-concern-about-future-of-the-game-1628817/)** > > A survey of WoW’s monthly active users has revealed that the game has almost halved in popularity over the last four years. Yikes! CCP, I don’t recommend emulating a failing company. Mike is right about one thing though, you can only choose 2… Fun\<\>Relaxation\<\>meaningful choice Remember, the first choice players make is launching your game, and THAT choice can also be meaningful. No one likes to sit down at the end of a hard workday to a nice hot cup of “meaningful choice”. ---
**Author:** ![WindRider9](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/windrider9/32/280759_2.png) [@WindRider9](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/WindRider9)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1002 "2021-11-22T19:02:41Z")
I had thought CCP committed to increasing volumes after scarcity? ---
**Author:** ![Lugues\_Slive](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugues_slive/32/454530_2.png) [@Lugues\_Slive](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugues_Slive)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1003 "2021-11-22T19:04:53Z")
They did, but the last time they mentioned that was before they updated waste. So I don’t know if they plan on reducing the doubling or keeping it. I might have missed something in the update itself, don’t have the same energy for the second 1k post thread. ---
**Author:** ![Moko\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/moko_musana/32/373694_2.png) [@Moko\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Moko_Musana)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1004 "2021-11-22T19:07:54Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Ever heard of HAW dreads? The only Dread I can use is the Phoenix, with Rapid Torpedo Launchers using Rage Torps and 3 Ballistic Controls it has less than 300 dps… that’s not just less DPS then a Raven with the same Rage Torps (or Cruises), it’s even less than a Caracal with any of the missile types that go on it. You either siege a dread (which tenfolds the dps) or you don’t use a dread And with the Rorqual, it should be the same. If safety prohibits sieging, then use an Orca or Porpoise rather then an non-sieged Rorqual which is superior to an Orca nevertheless ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1005 "2021-11-22T19:18:21Z")
I have read (or skimmed…) every post in this thread, and its predecessor. I don’t regard myself as a miner, yet I do mine; just not as an EVE career. I can amuse myself by making modules for my other vessels. So I do have some reason to be here, and it certainly is not to further inflate the egos of ‘rock-stars’! I am a semi-retired ganker. When all the dust settles and you all finally have your figures, I’ll surely look over any changes to EHP on Highsec vessels which might tempt me back into the fray. More EHP for your barges and/or exhumers is bound to pique the interest of gankers, as they work out what it will take to re-establish the _status-quo_. So, I consider that I do have a dog in this fight - even if it is an unpopular, mangy-looking beast! Miners and other carebears are regular contributors to ganking threads, where they usually ask for ‘one-more-nerf’ to ganking, and ‘one-more buff’ to barges. If a poster in this or any other thread mentions ganking in a way which appears to require correction, I and others will step in. Why should we not? If the subject is considered to be off-topic, remember that it was first raised by one of your own! O, and a quick word about AFK miners. AFK mining is a thing, and you all know it. We can argue about how much of it goes on, but none of us truly has the data. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1006 "2021-11-22T19:19:35Z")
> [@L0rdF1end](#): > > I’m confused, why would anyone ever use an Orca? Because good luck using a Rorqual in highsec? > [@Astiris\_Lucrent](#): > > Well…Have we seen this before? I mean a gaming company trying to force “meaningful choice” on players sounds familiar… It should, it’s been EVE’s model since 2003. > [@Moko\_Musana](#): > > You either siege a dread (which tenfolds the dps) or you don’t use a dread Fifteen. Your example dread goes from 335 DPS w/out Siege (Rapid Torps, Scourge Rage, 3x BCS) to 5020 with it. And yeah, that’s how dreads are supposed to work. The dread, even without siege, has more ehp than a battleship. ---
**Author:** ![Astiris\_Lucrent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astiris_lucrent/32/296858_2.png) [@Astiris\_Lucrent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astiris_Lucrent)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1007 "2021-11-22T19:40:13Z")
But it’s not quite the same. There is a difference between player agency in fitting ships for pvp versus forced choices in PVE(which mining is since gankers are nothing more than fancy belt rats). Player agency lets players counter “each other”. Forcing a choice where players have to gimp themselves versus the game design never works out as intended, and only results in frustration. There are countless MMOs that have failed because of this concept. Frustrating player agency in PVE will not help your game in any way at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1008 "2021-11-22T19:54:29Z")
> [@Astiris\_Lucrent](#): > > There are countless MMOs that have failed because of this concept. I’m just thankful that EVE isn’t one of them; aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Advenat\_Bedala](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/advenat_bedala/32/222076_2.png) [@Advenat\_Bedala](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Advenat_Bedala)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1009 "2021-11-22T20:03:25Z")
> [@CCP\_Psych](#): > > ## Mining Frigates & Porpoise > > All proposed changes to the Venture, Expedition Frigates, and Porpoise are being reverted with one exception: they will still be getting the additional Gas/Ice bays as relevant. Ninja mining, as a career, is something we absolutely love and have no intentions of removing this playstyle. Rather, we want to enable more playstyles on top of it. About ninja-mining: CCP please take a look > [@Compressed asteroids signature](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/compressed-asteroids-signature/325442): > > tl;dr Scannable mining sites for frigates. Much like relic sites for hackers but for miners. Intro Because of recent triglavian/drifter activity some ore was captured inside of small but strong gravitational anomalies. All affected ore become compressed but is no longer accessible without scanning. Also ships bigger than destroyer cannot enter because of gravitational interference with larger warp-drives. CONCORD recommends cation while exploring such signatures. Undesired ship loss may hap… ---
**Author:** ![Hyperionus\_Iapetorii](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hyperionus_iapetorii/32/376868_2.png) [@Hyperionus\_Iapetorii](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hyperionus_Iapetorii)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1010 "2021-11-22T20:10:11Z")
I think the investment involved is pretty fair - the skillbook for gas harvesting is a little over 30 million, which no truly new player will be able to buy without using up a significant portion of their resources. Just because the investment isn’t tangibly fielded doesn’t mean the it hasn’t been made. The same goes for exploration - herons and magnates may be cheap, but with low skills they won’t be able to hack all of the cans in worthwhile sites. Speaking from experience, there are some “maps” which will be impossible to hack at a low skill level without the added bonuses a more expensive ship like the astero gives. And generally, these more difficult maps are protecting more valuable loot drops. ---
**Author:** ![Nyrak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nyrak/32/296189_2.png) [@Nyrak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nyrak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1011 "2021-11-22T20:45:33Z")
Reading this latest revision still has me close to cancelling my yearly subscriptions for good. While the waste aspects are dumb and the weakening to the ships are even worse, the one change that is truly annoying me is the removal of the current crystals and reprocessing skills for the different asteroids into a simple “A”, “B”, and “C” reduction and grouping of rock types. This continues a trend from CCP - just remove detail and reduce variety into simple choices that has been ongoing for years. For what used to be touted as a sandbox game with its rich lore history and distinctive aspects to four individual races fighting against each other while a chaotic universe attempts to crush their survival has turned into a “You will play the game how we want it.” There is no large swaths of uniqueness, no breaking the mold like Eve used to be long ago. Today, everything is merging into simple designs with tedium steps interjected to make it appear complex. And to think I actually started getting back into the game after spending years training skills due to real life reasons. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Aegean](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aegean/32/296336_2.png) [@Aegean](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aegean)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1012 "2021-11-22T20:46:06Z")
@CCP_Psych so what is the plan now to save new players and inrease the retention ? Rookie help will be full of brain washers teaching newbies mining and telling them they cant do PvP ? How many more PvP mindset players you will loose in the first days into game ? And hoard more indy players … while they learn to how to be more averse ? I guess this is not the end of new player hoarder indy corporations …who introduce PvP ers like piece of ■■■■ people to them … Grinding Online … how many more new players you will loose just because of you could not hold your wits about ? That was may be the best thing you had done for a long long time and that was also 1000 times more effective way to deal with retention issues than your assorted new NPE… they just sold your most strong hand as a weakness to you… and you believe it . Tell me is there anyone out there who understand human nature and biases a little bit ? Who is capable to make some kind of strategic analyses short and long term? CCP actually did something very good … why reverting it back? Text book failiure that can be case study in schools. Thanks for the material. ---
**Author:** ![Vasistha\_Idama](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vasistha_idama/32/296751_2.png) [@Vasistha\_Idama](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vasistha_Idama)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1013 "2021-11-22T20:59:39Z")
That’s great you took your hands away from porpoise and mining frigates. Whoever proposed that changes know nothing about gameplay this ships support. Now, you have to understend about orca. This is not op mining ship. Mine just like mackinaw i belive, and requires a lot more sp and isk to start. Just support gameplay, that most of miners is looking for- idly mining through asteroid belt without need to dock or afraid about being ganked by 2 catalysts. I can try to understand rorqual case, and maybe this yield is too good for one ship, but orca was endgame goal, dream for beginners both fleet and solo miners. Dont take it from us, just because you know it wasnt be played like you supposed it should be. However, if you didnt change your mind, it would be just to give back all sp and start buyback program for those who have either orca or rorqual. I have to mention that you made a lot of money on skins, injectors, and other stuff related to playstyles that you tell us are wrong. I consider this very immoral to earn by things you consider are not ok, and i would not belive you didnt know about solo mining orca. ---
**Author:** ![MalcomReynolds\_Serenity](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malcomreynolds_serenity/32/385107_2.png) [@MalcomReynolds\_Serenity](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MalcomReynolds_Serenity)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1014 "2021-11-22T21:21:16Z")
if you are going to remove that much waste loss, you need to get rid of some of the ore supply buffs [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=49) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=51)