# From Extraction To Production: Update **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Created:** [November 20, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887 "2021-11-20T00:08:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 79
**Author:** ![Induce\_Deadline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/induce_deadline/32/418955_2.png) [@Induce\_Deadline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Induce_Deadline)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 8:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1586 "2021-11-26T08:16:21Z")
I’d love to know what you’re actually advocating behind the scenes Ken. Not sure whether to buy into the narrative that the terrible indy changes were in part your design. Genuinely curious, what do you actually stand for as a CSM rep? ---
**Author:** ![Onslaughtor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/onslaughtor/32/298273_2.png) [@Onslaughtor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Onslaughtor)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 8:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1588 "2021-11-26T08:21:51Z")
Comparing the originally posted figures and bonuses vs this latest round has me a little concerned. Barges in the original posting were expecting significant buffs to mining amount/duration and this seems to have been pulled back. The covetor was expecting a 20% increase in mining efficiency, where it is now only receiving a 5% buff. Hulk is down 10% as well, Same goes for the other barges and exumers losing out on the previously posted bonuses of around 10-15%. I realize with the effective removal of waste from t1 builds the pure amount of materials available has gone up significantly more than the 30% we were expecting with the original numbers. Now we are expecting 90% more ore and no where near the speed needed to actually mine it. Im very happy that the ships are able to actually fit a little survivablity now, but I still feel the barges lack the midslots to fit real shield tanks. The addition of pi to r4 ore is a horrible idea. Please don’t do that. It destroys a booming economy that people are finnaly starting to get into and the very act of posting the changes has crippled it. Denounce it and move on. IF you want those p1 mats to be easier reduce m3 a bit, increase the general planet density for them and increase the epithals pi bay, along with some stats to survivbilty so people will fly them as the main transport. The split mineing holds are still silly, unneeded and just shouldnt be split. Also larger oreholds in all the barges/exumers really should be considered. I still hold that waste for t1 miners should be 50% to generate a more fair field and encourage people to upgrade to t2 instead of people who wish to mine faster being ridiculed for generating any waste at all. ---
**Author:** ![Zack\_Assene](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zack_assene/32/298312_2.png) [@Zack\_Assene](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zack_Assene)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 8:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1589 "2021-11-26T08:25:55Z")
I don’t normally reply here but dear god are all of you in CCP undergoing some kind of fever dream right now? Why are you putting PI on a moon…!!! What we really need is higher concentrations of the actual MOON goo on the moons. Seriously get a grip!! ---
**Author:** ![Kenrailae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenrailae/32/494205_2.png) [@Kenrailae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenrailae)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 8:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1590 "2021-11-26T08:41:29Z")
And this is the direction CCP _should_ move into. Give smaller entities or industrial corporations the ability to withstand ‘minor’ threats like ganks(with reasonable preparation and commitment), without having to cross train a bunch of characters into ships completely unrelated to the field they’re pursuing. This is the ‘in a nutshell’ essence of the idea baltec put forward with a similar proposal several years ago. Ganking was still around then, but it wasn’t boiled down to a min/maxed science of ‘X cats to gank this barge’ as much as it has become now. I will never advocate for ganking to be removed from the game. This isn’t actually about ganking. It’s about how utterly pathetic and useless barges are, and how stale/dead the entire mentality around ‘but but but industrial so no pew pew’ is. CCP wants to speak of Eve’s eco-system outliving us, but can’t even tolerate an eco-system capable of evolving to deal with problems/undesirable ‘emergent’ outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Caliphate\_Mia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/caliphate_mia/32/245668_2.png) [@Caliphate\_Mia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Caliphate_Mia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 9:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1591 "2021-11-26T09:06:41Z")
I think he is great, I like these changes ---
**Author:** ![Cara\_Lube](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cara_lube/32/297237_2.png) [@Cara\_Lube](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cara_Lube)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 9:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1592 "2021-11-26T09:18:36Z")
w[quote=“Never\_Enough\_ISK, post:1441, topic:337887, full:true”] You do realize that the main problem of basic PI stuff isn’t available quantity, but volume? [/quote] wich would be “solved” by compressable ores containing said P1´s … not saying i would like that change at all. ---
**Author:** ![DOA\_JSE](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/doa_jse/32/263710_2.png) [@DOA\_JSE](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DOA_JSE)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 9:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1593 "2021-11-26T09:33:12Z")
Not saying I like the change, but wouldn’t compressed R4 being moved around solve at least some of the P1 size issue? This is the only reasoning I can see for this change. Compressed R4 becomes desirable because of the compressed P1 in it. I would personally have preferred that the R4 reaction amounts were increased in the goo. ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 9:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1595 "2021-11-26T09:44:11Z")
And the funniest fact : They kill so much the capital production the demand incrase was de to end of war and citadel reconstruction. ---
**Author:** ![Nyrak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nyrak/32/296189_2.png) [@Nyrak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nyrak)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 10:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1596 "2021-11-26T10:05:26Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Ok, so, I’m not going to object to these changes on any mechanical basis. I _am_, however, going to ask you guys to **please** consider this from a lore perspective. > > R4s. Some of the most common moons in the New Eden Cluster. More than 25% of them (because there are a _lot_ of multiple-R4 moons) have Coesite. So they’ll have bacteria. > > They won’t have _water_ (unless it’s a Coesite/Sylvite moon), or protein (unless it’s a Bitumen/Coesite moon) but they’ll have functioning cellular organisms made of proteins, which contain _water_ in the cells. So this is bacteria that manages to exist and reproduce in an environment with no food source, and where it should, y’know, explode due to the lack of water pressure outside the cell membrane. > > It then get blasted into space as part of a huge chunk of rock by a gigantic laser. Then the rock explodes. Then the rock gets cut up by _lasers_, which, you know, are _hot_. Then it all gets reprocessed. > > And the bacteria _survives_ to remain viable ‘bacteria’ that can be used in predictable industrial applications. > > And despite this magical super-life being _all over_ the moons of New Eden… there are no actual _aliens_ in EVE. Didn’t you get the memo? CCP does not care about lore - prime example is the four empires use four different engine types but yes, they all sound the same! So they needed to do something to alter their previous mistakes, I mean designs? Why not add living organisms to rocks floating through the void of space! Eventually, when you’re playing Eve through your smart phone, you won’t care about trifle things either! ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 10:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1597 "2021-11-26T10:22:30Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > An orca can go untouched for over an hour and still be mining Well either rocks in highsec belts are way bigger than they used to be OR the Orca mines really really slowly. ---
**Author:** ![Nyrak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nyrak/32/296189_2.png) [@Nyrak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nyrak)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 10:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1598 "2021-11-26T10:25:15Z")
As I catch up reading this thread, I see players went from complaining about waste as a topic to determining the best combination for new players and veterans to use without losing too much. In time, the original changes presented will come to pass because the (remaining) players will just accept it too. ---
**Author:** ![meppa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/meppa/32/437583_2.png) [@meppa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/meppa)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 10:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1599 "2021-11-26T10:27:05Z")
If your ore bay fills up in 130 seconds and you need to move ore out at that point by clicking and dragging how on earth it matters how many cyckles you do before that point. Sure yield is better for cap drain and crystal wear but not for the click intensiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1600 "2021-11-26T10:43:17Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > OR the Orca mines really really slowly. Not slow enough it seems. Or why do so many people use it? ---
**Author:** ![Zumbas\_Egdald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zumbas_egdald/32/321667_2.png) [@Zumbas\_Egdald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zumbas_Egdald)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 10:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1601 "2021-11-26T10:56:17Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, first, don’t pay attention to TiS, it’s where stupid things get said. Noted! I watched cause, at first glimpse, was an easy way to know, watch some capsulers talking about EvE… > [@Arrendis](#): > > number of community discords, and Brisc, of course, hosts the Meta Show every week on INN’s twitch stream Thanks! > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You can watch Merk, myself and Innomiate on RampageInc almost every night. Will google it! 😃 > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > We have been bitching nightly about scarcity and the dropping player numbers for two weeks now. Nahhhhhhhh… The scarcity is just beginning… why? miners are being f@@@@ by EVE with this updates! Mining will be more than ever a grind way… Should EVE focus more in killing bots and other illegals ways? Why this obsession by killing miners path? They just wanna us to do PVE and PVP? To go to low, null or wh? I just don´t get it… Their mantra is broken: you can´t do what you want in EVE!!! You can do what you are told to do… and with a bonus: you pay for this! Pure nonsense… This is supposed to be a game… I´m just sad that i paid a few weeks ago for more omega… It´s a gem this game… I think the right word now is… was a gem… just sad! ---
**Author:** ![Cara\_Lube](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cara_lube/32/297237_2.png) [@Cara\_Lube](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cara_Lube)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1602 "2021-11-26T11:00:28Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > > [@Arrendis](#): > > > > That’s not actually about null. It’s about newbies, because if adding a newbie to your mining operation means your mining corp gets less ore (because of waste) then there’s a significant disincentive to allow newbie miners into your corp—to the point that multiple members of different orgs flat out told CCP that they wouldn’t do it, so CCP changed things so newbies can actually get hooked into player corps on a mining progession. > > I’m glad CCP listened to the problems of higher waste for T1 mining. > > I just wish they didn’t remove _all_ waste for T1, but brought T1 mining in line with efficient T2 mining. > > As it is now, instead of newbies being punished, people get punished for mining with T2 lasers, even with the most efficient crystals! That surely should not be the case? > > If someone wants to mine fast, they pick crystal B. If someone wants to mine efficient, they should pick crystal A according to the designs, but if it’s more efficient to pick a cheap T1 mining laser instead, something is wrong with the current waste numbers. > > If T1 mining lasers had the same (nonzero) waste as T2 mining lasers with efficient (type A) crystals, it would be perfect: no newbies punished for mining with low skills, yet people with skills for T2 mining lasers also do not feel like they should mine with T1 for more effiency. this. thats why i supposed to have both at 34% waste but add a waste reduction boost to orca and rorq. wich leads to the problem of at least orcas not having enough higslots and fitting room. this entire patch idea needs to be taken back to the whiteboard and rebuild from scratch. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1603 "2021-11-26T11:13:22Z")
> [@Kenneth\_Feld](#): > > I am talking purely from a clickfest perspective To mine an asteroid one does exactly the same number of clicks whether there is a duration bonus or a yield per cycle bonus. So your reply puzzles me, while it is also a strawman. The clickfest, as you call it, comes purely from the size of the asteroid (or another factor like ore hold), not from the mining bonuses. That is about as clear as let’s say supply and demand. > [@Kenneth\_Feld](#): > > but generally trading duration for yield means less clicking It does not. At most it means less clicking per hour - which is irrelevant - but never less clicking per moon chunk, per asteroid belt, per ore hold. It’s the _per time unit_ you seem to have an issue with. So let’s not get distracted by what is “good” in our respective opinions. I ask for a _quantifier_, not a _qualifier_. I will, for my own play style, determine if it is any _good_ or not. I do not know how to put the question clearer than this: _with the same fit, how much does a covetor pull in **m3/sec** , without boosts, with maxed skills, a reference fit, before and after the changes that ccp plans_. But like I wrote earlier, if you do not have the numbers handy or are not in a position to calculate, that’s all fine, Kenneth. Just say so. > [@Kenneth\_Feld](#): > > if you specify a ship, I can give you details on exactly the before and after yields to help ease your nerves as a friendly reminder ---
**Author:** ![Tsumi\_Tzestu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tsumi_tzestu/32/289769_2.png) [@Tsumi\_Tzestu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tsumi_Tzestu)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1604 "2021-11-26T11:22:52Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > > > OR the Orca mines really really slowly. > > Not slow enough it seems. Or why do so many people use it? Big cargo space, not terrible at mining not great at mining either, really good buffer tank less likely to be targeted, yet if you see FOB in your system you don’t undock that thing, Orca ain’t immune to those. If you got corp mate fleet mate that wanna mine you can provide boost aswell… the Orca “WAS” a good ship to have, with these changes , nah stick to the Porpoise… ---
**Author:** ![Cara\_Lube](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cara_lube/32/297237_2.png) [@Cara\_Lube](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cara_Lube)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1605 "2021-11-26T11:25:16Z")
> [@Kenneth\_Feld](#): > > I am talking purely from a clickfest perspective > > You can make the duration bonus and yield bonus the same or one higher than the other by manipulating number, **but generally trading duration for yield means less clicking** > … Did i miss sth or wasn’t making mining more active one of the goals of this entire garbagefest? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > > > OR the Orca mines really really slowly. > > Not slow enough it seems. Or why do so many people use it? because its a rather “safe” way as the amount of players required to gank you is so high that you can leave your mining operation before they have entered your mining location. unlike the smaller non proc/skiffs who will have to leave your roids just because a singel person entered your system. ---
**Author:** ![Tsumi\_Tzestu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tsumi_tzestu/32/289769_2.png) [@Tsumi\_Tzestu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tsumi_Tzestu)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1606 "2021-11-26T11:31:07Z")
> [@Cara\_Lube](#): > > Did i miss sth or wasn’t making mining more active one of the goals of this entire garbagefest? This is so funny. Some games tries really hard to avoid needless clicking cause they know their playerbase could develop " Repetitive strain injury ( **RSI** ) is a general term used to describe the **pain felt in muscles, nerves and tendons caused by repetitive movement and overuse**." Meanwhile CCP with an average of 27yo’s gamers (probably higher tbh) thinks that increasing the clicks someone has to make for a simple task is the right call. ---
**Author:** ![Kenrailae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenrailae/32/494205_2.png) [@Kenrailae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenrailae)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1607 "2021-11-26T11:36:54Z")
Making mining more active does not inherently mean making mining more clicky\*(typo, sorry). There are ways to do it that don’t necessarily have to mean more clicks. Especially in a game like Eve where so much can be bound to keyboards and other input devices. It’s just CCP lacks innovation and only views things through the ‘balance’ lenses it’s used for the last decade and a half. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=78) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=80)