# From Extraction To Production: Update **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Created:** [November 20, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887 "2021-11-20T00:08:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![Tsumi\_Tzestu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tsumi_tzestu/32/289769_2.png) [@Tsumi\_Tzestu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tsumi_Tzestu)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1731 "2021-11-27T14:53:01Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > if the ehp goes up then they will simply use more gankers or different ships. that’s good ! the catalyst meta has to stop , more expensive ship = Is it really worth it for you then ? It’s like you’re so starved of PvP in this game that you resort to ganking miners without a reason to gank them other than they are easy target to gank. No war. No market flipping. No sector control. Just pure hungry gank for starved PvPers cause CCP can’t seem to be able to properly balance where the PvP should take place. High Sec PvP is by far the place where it sees the most ganks, when it should be the safest. ---
**Author:** ![makrish1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makrish1/32/296153_2.png) [@makrish1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/makrish1)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1732 "2021-11-27T14:53:48Z")
> [@Kenrailae](#): > > Same as miners are _not_ entitled to a safe space, Gankers are _not_ entitled to profit ganking. I’m not saying they are. > [@Kenrailae](#): > > People will still do it for salt mining or just to make a point My point is they can’t gank exhumers for salt as regularly. With the added tank, literally between 4 and 8 times as much EHP, it’s _much_ more difficult for gankers to regularly target exhumers. With the added costs, fewer gankers are going to be doing it. ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 2:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1733 "2021-11-27T14:54:32Z")
> [@makrish1](#): > > RR does matter. A catalyst should be able to do - on average - 16k effective damage in a 0.5 before CONCORD arrives. If you bring five catalysts, that’s 80k ehp (probably less given the random nature of turrets). With an orca, if you have 3 RRs, that will be 7k ehp every 8 seconds. That can be the difference. If you haven’t killed your target before an ORCA can lock it and rep it you’re bad at ganking. Learn how to do math (google sheets is free). ---
**Author:** ![makrish1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makrish1/32/296153_2.png) [@makrish1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/makrish1)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1734 "2021-11-27T14:56:10Z")
> [@aldarrin](#): > > If you haven’t killed your target before an ORCA can lock it and rep it you’re bad at ganking. If you don’t have your miners locked up before gankers get to you, you’re bad at multiboxing miners (or you have too many miners). ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1735 "2021-11-27T14:57:08Z")
> [@aldarrin](#): > > but trying to gank a bling fit Orca takes 40 toons. No one bling fits an orca because it just makes you MORE of a target and even then it doesn’t take 40. Again, any active miners who put in active effort are FINE, the only ones affected are the ones CCP is specifically aiming for and for good reason. Less bots, less nameless alts, les massive grinding that fcks up the economy for normal players. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1736 "2021-11-27T14:58:19Z")
I agree 100% on the first bit but if someone states that ships should be able to fend of attackers “until concord arrives” then what they are saying is “I should live regardless of what happens and not through my own actions”. ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1737 "2021-11-27T14:59:05Z")
> [@makrish1](#): > > If you don’t have your miners locked up before gankers get to you, you’re bad at multiboxing miners (or you have too many miners). You don’t know how mining works. Your opinion doesn’t matter in this entire thread. Also, I have 3 accounts and this isn’t about me, it’s about the health of the game. But go grief more new bros so the game dies faster. ---
**Author:** ![Kenrailae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenrailae/32/494205_2.png) [@Kenrailae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenrailae)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1738 "2021-11-27T15:00:08Z")
No, he’s right. You should have your rep targets locked beforehand, or at the _VERY_ least, have them on your WL, ready to lock. ---
**Author:** ![Ranar\_Linyne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ranar_linyne/32/378478_2.png) [@Ranar\_Linyne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ranar_Linyne)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1739 "2021-11-27T15:03:15Z")
> [@Moko\_Musana](#): > > lower numbers of mid slots. In this case, additional lows were added You mean mining laser upgrade slots? Because thats what goes in the lows on barges and exhumers. Those mids they removed where for tackle not tank. Nevermind that for every shield booster the orca runs thats one less mining booster. Orcas won’t be boosting shields, hell Orcas won’t be boosting anything what with the price tag and the self tackling required to do it. But hey, pyfa says this is a good thing right? ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1740 "2021-11-27T15:05:35Z")
Currently, there’s no way to fit barges to mine efficiently and withstand a griefing attack. No one is asking for complete safety, just some safety. Easily ganking miners isn’t a god given right. Skillful ganking miners _should_ be a god given right though. Orcas and Rorquals are popular not because they mine to much (well, the Rorqual does mine too much and the nerf is fine) but because they are the ONLY ships that have a tank and teeth. Give mining barges teeth and tank and we’ll be in a place where both the miner AND the ganker have risk v reward calculations. I’ll say it again, easily ganking miners isn’t a god given right. I’m sorry if it means you have to learn to PVP, but you’ll be happier when you do. I’m not even a full time miner, just have played this game for 15 years and know a thing or two. ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1741 "2021-11-27T15:09:37Z")
> [@Kenrailae](#): > > No, he’s right. You should have your rep targets locked beforehand, or at the _VERY_ least, have them on your WL, ready to lock. So, mining fleets should now have a bunch of barges and 1 booster (like PVP fleets). How many targets can your booster lock? It’s less than you have in your mining fleet. Will the booster pre-lock targets, yes. But there are more targets to kill than he can lock. OMG, you might shoot a target that is prelocked and fail your gank. That’s really terrible. We should change the game so it’s easier for you to shoot defenseless targets. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1742 "2021-11-27T15:14:27Z")
> [@aldarrin](#): > > Currently, there’s no way to fit barges to mine efficiently and withstand a griefing attack. No one is asking for complete safety, just some safety. Set standing to the obvious groups, don’t be afk, run Dscan, don’t be afk, don’t mine in busy or obvious systems, don’t be afk, have local window detached so you can always see the obvious culprits, don’t be afk, make sure your overview isn’t a mess so you will see gankers warping in, don’t be afk, actually use 10 minutes to figure out how to actually fit/tank your ships, don’t be afk, run shield links on the orca, don’t be afk, pretarget with your orca and be ready to run your remote shield reps, don’t be afk, perhaps bring an alt or better yet a newbie and put them in a Griffin, running “patrol”, don’t be afk, mine in a dead end system and park a scout next door so you can see incoming gankers, don’t be afk, don’t be afk, don’t be afk. There’s your safety. Don’t be afk. ---
**Author:** ![PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pixywarrior_ellecon/32/456340_2.png) [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/PixyWarrior_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1743 "2021-11-27T15:18:28Z")
Before this patch a skiff can mine relatively effectively and has plenty of tank and teeth ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1744 "2021-11-27T15:23:00Z")
LOL, I don’t do anything AFK, or play in HS. You want to be able to easily gank HS miners. That’s bad for a game that relies on HS mining. In HS you HAVE to rely on Concord for support. So it needs to be a feasible support platform. Let people that like HS do HS things. If you want to PVP, go to lowsec or null or get good at ganking. I swear to god, it’s easier living in null than in HS. And that’s a problem when HS systems are needed for minerals. The poor bastards that agree to mine in HS need a buff or a change to game mechanics to keep parasites from wrecking production. ---
**Author:** ![PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pixywarrior_ellecon/32/456340_2.png) [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/PixyWarrior_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1745 "2021-11-27T15:24:01Z")
Its more of the nullsec carebears need to stop being such big carebears. ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1746 "2021-11-27T15:26:10Z")
> [@aldarrin](#): > > No one is asking for complete safety, just some safety. They already have _some_ safety. > [@aldarrin](#): > > a griefing attack Ganking is not necessarily griefing. > [@aldarrin](#): > > Easily ganking miners isn’t a god given right. ‘Easily’ mining rocks is not a God-given right. > [@aldarrin](#): > > Give mining barges teeth and tank and we’ll be in a place where both the miner AND the ganker have risk v reward calculations. Let your mining fleet support and escort vessels be the teeth and the tank. > [@aldarrin](#): > > have played this game for 15 years and know a thing or two. You clearly don’t know how to string together a persuasive argument, aldarrin. What have you been doing for 15 years? ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1747 "2021-11-27T15:28:24Z")
> [@aldarrin](#): > > LOL, I don’t do anything AFK, or play in HS. You want to be able to easily gank HS miners. I don’t gank > [@aldarrin](#): > > I don’t do anything AFK Are you sure? I saw some idiotic fit afk grind bot ishtar loss there, mr Fraternity. Do you agree that if miners would put in more active effort that their safety would increase? And that, as it stands, the vast majority of them ARE afk and are entirely clueless and effortless? ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1748 "2021-11-27T15:29:32Z")
LOL, no they don’t. If you think mining is safe you’ve not done much mining. I’m sorry you are clearly attached to being able to easily kill targets. Maybe you should run missions if you can’t fight actual combat ships? In 15 years I went on three combat deployments, beat cancer, and retrained myself for a post combat life. How have you been? ---
**Author:** ![aldarrin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldarrin/32/279769_2.png) [@aldarrin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/aldarrin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1749 "2021-11-27T15:33:02Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > Are you sure? I saw some idiotic fit afk grind bot ishtar loss there, mr Fraternity. > > Do you agree that if miners would put in more active effort that their safety would increase? And that, as it stands, the vast majority of them ARE afk and are entirely clueless and effortless? I don’t know if you know this, but I’m not the whole of FRT. I’m okay with AFK folks getting dunked. We have folks that jump to the beacon in 4-H on the regular that don’t know it’s perma camped by cloakies. I can’t and don’t want to help stupid. But I think people actively playing should have a fair shot in a fight that they are forced into by nature of where resources are located at. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1750 "2021-11-27T15:38:39Z")
You’re in Frat for a reason though and I somehow doubt it’s because of the cool vistas. > [@aldarrin](#): > > But I think people actively playing should have a fair shot in a fight 100% agreement, the problem is ofc that the vast majority of the miners (and especially the alt ones) are NOT actively playing and do NOT put in any active brain effort, which is why they are having issues. Just like with the mining changes about the concept of Waste. The amount of people who think this waste affects their direct yield and thus, without thinking or checking, start raging on the forums is both terrible as hilarious. They’re clueless and unless something is explained and force fed to them in memes they won’t get it. Miners are, almost by default, low effort players. If they weren’t they’d not be mining. Exceptions exist. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=85) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=87)