# From Extraction To Production: Update **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Created:** [November 20, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887 "2021-11-20T00:08:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 96
**Author:** ![OreGrabber](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oregrabber/32/514999_2.png) [@OreGrabber](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/OreGrabber)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1946 "2021-11-28T19:37:32Z")
> **[zkillboard.com / Kills (Ganked)](https://zkillboard.com/kills/ganked/)** > > zkillboard.com is a killboard for the Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMORPG) EVE-Online. Try doing a little research on zkillboard, this is just ganked in HS. Look at the number of Barges/Exhumers and Orcs’a. You may be lucky But other miners are paying the price of CCP not letting miners defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1947 "2021-11-28T19:43:04Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > If that were not so, Nullsec would resemble a monopoly, whereas many organisations seem to survive well enough to keep their members content. Look, not to be blunt, but no. Nullsec doesn’t resemble a monopoly because very specific people actively _do not want it to be one_. Don’t believe me? Look at what happened on Serenity. Look at what PAPI’s entire goal was in the last war: they wanted to wipe us out and drive us out of null so they could set up even more rental space where the rest of the null blocs (ie: not us) were all blue to one another. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > I raised the issue only because, a few years ago, there was a slew of ‘Industrial’ corporations in Highsec, sporting CEOs who scooped up new players by making attractive and outrageous claims about what such recruits might expect. > > They were (in these instances) sent out to mine and permitted to keep only a little of the vast profits they made for the organisation. Knowing no better, they acceded, until their understanding of the game brought with it the realisation that they were being cruelly used. Yeah. And look who were involved in dealing with the worst of it: > **[How a scam in EVE Online turned into its greatest rescue mission](https://www.pcgamer.com/how-a-scam-in-eve-online-turned-into-its-greatest-rescue-mission/)** > > A master scammer takes on a cruel corp in the depths of space. Exactly the same groups that said ‘please don’t do this, it will hurt newbies’. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > You will know that in the higher positions in a successful corporation, it does become a job, with all the challenges and satisfactions that work can provide. > > But a key quality of good management is flexibility. A lean and supple organisation tends to respond well to difficulties. The attitude of some commentators on the topic of Max/Min mining has been too rigid for their survival as corporations to be guaranteed in the long-term. You favour this ‘long-term’ view. I say rather that good management means looking at the totality of the situation. Investing in today so that tomorrow is a little less uncertain. > > I have been a manager, in both the private and public sectors, and this is simply what I have found. It isn’t the only possible view! Yeah, I’ve been management, too. I’ve also been a director in GSF. We do try to look at the long-term overall ecosystem. That’s how our CSMs approach their advice to CCP. Because that’s where the ‘totality of the situation’ comes in. That’s how you invest in making tomorrow less certain: you give CCP good advice. Because CCP are the only ones who can actually engineer the game. When we’re actually _playing_ the game, though, we have to take the ‘what is the optimal solution _right now_?’ approach. Because if we don’t, we won’t be here tomorrow. There’s way too many other people looking to wipe us out, and _they_ are the ones giving CCP crappy advice that only benefits their playstyle. For example, advising CCP on a mining paradigm that somehow only perfectly fits the ‘28d frack and everything is rented out to our own guys’ model used by Pandemic Legion. ---
**Author:** ![Gnat\_Mikakka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnat_mikakka/32/374637_2.png) [@Gnat\_Mikakka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gnat_Mikakka)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1948 "2021-11-28T19:43:35Z")
Gas Drones? ---
**Author:** ![PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pixywarrior_ellecon/32/456340_2.png) [@PixyWarrior\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/PixyWarrior_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1949 "2021-11-28T20:37:36Z")
why are you still on this? ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1950 "2021-11-28T20:39:42Z")
Arrendis, I’m not familiar with Nullsec as an entity, so I should not have commented on that. Otherwise, I stand by what I’ve said. > [@Arrendis](#): > > we have to take the ‘what is the optimal solution _right now_?’ approach. Because if we don’t, we won’t be here tomorrow. Perhaps it is time for the GSF to break up; a monolith is good at standing firm, at enduring, but may suffer inertia. Perhaps…but I undertook not to comment on Nullsec! These proposed changes will affect the play of quite a few people - me included. Heads will be bent over spreadsheets and beermats, tempers will be lost and the finger of blame pointed at just about everyone - not just CCP. In the end, I hope people will adjust to any negative changes and embrace the ones they _can_ get behind. As for CCP; it appears that they too take the long-term view, and that - barring out-and-out global un-subbing - they’re prepared to put some folks through present-pain in order to achieve longer-term goals. Thanks for your reply though, the opinion of a former GSF Director is useful. ---
**Author:** ![Grubensteiger](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grubensteiger/32/298624_2.png) [@Grubensteiger](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grubensteiger)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1951 "2021-11-28T20:41:43Z")
Bro, people just don’t understand nor wanna see when someone is trying to help. no matter what you say they will always see the negative in things! Like you said some people just act a certain way! ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1952 "2021-11-28T20:45:36Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > Perhaps it is time for the GSF to break up No. Sorry, I know that’s kind of blunt and direct, but no, we’re not going to stop playing with our friends. We’re not going to intentionally make ourselves easier targets for our enemies to strangle one by one. We just fought off a 14-month long assault by over 100 enemy alliances with over 150,000 characters in them. We could do that because we were unified. If we were to break up, we would not have that unity. We _would_ still have that many enemies. And they _would_ come for us, one by one. They’d try to turn some of us, first—after all, they were actively trying to turn and recruit our guys during the war, there’s no way they’d stop when we _offer_ them an all new set of weaknesses to exploit—but turn or no, they’d come to drive us out. And let’s face it, EVE is a mechanically terrible game. We don’t play EVE for the game mechanics, we play it for the people we play with. So no, we’re not going to stop playing with our friends just so our enemies can have an easier time purging us from space. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > As for CCP; it appears that they too take the long-term view, It might… except they fundamentally don’t understand their game. If they did, they wouldn’t have needed to be _told_ ‘yeah, making this change that means newbies will cost mining corps money’ was gonna make things harder for newbies. ---
**Author:** ![Richter\_Talon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/richter_talon/32/296228_2.png) [@Richter\_Talon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Richter_Talon)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1953 "2021-11-28T20:51:41Z")
google “Eve Magic Schoolbus” - he does quite a lot, CSM or not. ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1954 "2021-11-28T20:59:16Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > > > Perhaps it is time for the GSF to break up > > No. I respect the passion of your conviction! > [@Arrendis](#): > > they fundamentally don’t understand their game CCP’s understanding of their game is bound not to appeal to everyone who plays it. They do make changes, and I think they do consider player and CSM feedback. And then they make the changes anyway. It’s autocratic of them, I know, but you and I are still playing, so there must be something keeping us logging in. Perhaps it’s the social benefits you mentioned… ---
**Author:** ![Grubensteiger](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grubensteiger/32/298624_2.png) [@Grubensteiger](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grubensteiger)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1955 "2021-11-28T21:01:33Z")
CCP has literally never understood there own game! the only time they understood it was when the devs actively played it and saw the ■■■■ that was broken or would break! The players today would never understand the 3,4 or even a week when eve used to go down with emergency restarts lol. CCP just breaks there game unless the player base points it in there faces. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1956 "2021-11-28T21:11:15Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > so there must be something keeping us logging in. Lack of alternatives is one. That is probably the only thing that has been keeping EVE alive for the last 10 years. I recently tried SC and while it has potential it is simply not there yet in any way, shape or form. Another reason are the people you came to like and play with in your corp/alliance/group are second. I mostly only log in these days because of the guys in my corp, then because I like what I am doing in EVE (which CCP is about to ruin with their uninspired proposed changes). CCP’s development practices are certainly not among the things keeping people here. ![REDNES](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/6/5/96524d53cb22e8d34dff925203908c55729b363e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Kenrailae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenrailae/32/494205_2.png) [@Kenrailae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenrailae)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1957 "2021-11-28T21:14:38Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Lack of alternatives is one. This is the only thing keeping Eve alive. Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous are probably the closest competitors, but they’re not Eve, nor supposed to be Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1958 "2021-11-28T21:16:47Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > CCP’s understanding of their game is bound not to appeal to everyone who plays it. They do make changes, and I think they do consider player and CSM feedback. CCP’s understanding of the game being something that doesn’t appeal to everyone wouldn’t be an issue. They **do not** understand their game. Here’s another example: I had to tell CCP Rattati that there is currently no progression for gas harvesting. Me, personally, in the one-on-one discussions we’ve had about scarcity and how to fix things over the last 8 months_1_. He didn’t know that. He didn’t know that once you get past the Venture and Prospect, _right now_ there is no ship that gets bonuses. He didn’t know it, and either the entire rest of the guys working on this crap (including Industry Expert Feld) either didn’t know, or didn’t bother to tell him. It’s not that I think they’re making decisions based on an unwelcome understanding. And I sincerely don’t think they’re making decisions with any kind of malicious intent toward anyone or any play style. They simply _do not get it_. And a **huge** part of that is absolutely _not their fault_. CCP Aurora—who is not a coder or a developer, but a community manager—busted her butt (with help from folks like Fozzie and Swift) to get the Alliance Tournament back, including teaching herself the code that runs Thunderdome. Rattati also didn’t know that NPC ‘industry teams’ were scrapped as a mechanic because a few stupidly-rich industrialists engaged in what amounts to industrial PvP by buying up all of the really good teams’ time—even if they weren’t using them—expressly to deny those bonuses to other industrialists. The list goes on and on. Why is that? Because in the build-up to selling the company to PA, the venture capitalists who owned CCP at the time absolutely _gutted_ the payroll. The sheer amount of institutional memory that was lost in those purges was _agonizing_. There are devs at CCP who very much understand _their_ part of the game. Rise understands ship fitting like very few people do, for example. But all of it? There’s nobody there who knows all of it. And there are huge chunks of the game where all of the devs who understood it have gone. So through no fault of their own, the guys who are still there… no. It’s not that their understanding doesn’t appeal to people. It’s not that their understanding is colored by certain goals and objectives. They _do not_ understand the game. Not these parts of the game. And they know it. * * * 1. So, yeah, the fact that barges etc are getting new gas harvesters? ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/f/7/ef7e726b791e1cb877edd8159e782dc5fb713c81.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![WindRider9](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/windrider9/32/280759_2.png) [@WindRider9](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/WindRider9)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1959 "2021-11-28T21:17:28Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Together with adding waste, the asteroid size is doubled. If you mine with 100% waste there is no difference, but if you mine more efficiently you will get _more_ ore out of a belt. It doesn’t matter, the waste mechanic was a lame idea in the first place. The change basically makes the entire update a lie. Doubling the ore, then added enough waste to make it less then promised. I encourage CCP to **make changes players will be excited about** , and add surveys for proposed changes. Not many players are excited about these changes. In fact, NOT making these changes might be the more exciting and preferred by most. Think about that. ---
**Author:** ![Suki\_Vokkonen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/suki_vokkonen/32/382402_2.png) [@Suki\_Vokkonen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Suki_Vokkonen)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1960 "2021-11-28T21:28:09Z")
> [@makrish1](#): > > Singularity has been updated, I was doing some mining yesterday evening comparing a hulk vs a mackinaw. They’re both in good places, I think I’ll be upgrading from my skiff. NO, Singularity is NOT updated with the ships bonuses Check what’s on the OP, as of today the ship bonuses are still missing on Singularity. Try the fitting tool without modules, ship skill level for shields resistance for example is an easy one to spot. My main focus are the Exhumers and how shitty the Skiff is compared to the Mackinaw now (on paper, still need to validate on Sigularity WHEN IT GETS UPDATED). Not asking for the Mackinaw to be nerfed, rather for the Skiff to get an actual **significant** buff! like the others. You don’t double it’s weight for nothing) @CCP_Psych When can we expect Singularity to reflect your updated OP regarding barges and Exhumers? ---
**Author:** ![Nyrak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nyrak/32/296189_2.png) [@Nyrak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nyrak)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1961 "2021-11-28T21:35:16Z")
> [@Suki\_Vokkonen](#): > > @CCP_Psych When can we expect Singularity to reflect your updated OP regarding barges and Exhumers? A week or two after the original changes go live on Tranquility. Too many times in the past, broken aspects noted and reported on Singularity are released “as is” with a possible remedy in the future. Now it appears CCP is avoiding releasing the Barges and Exhumers changes to fend off backlash before the release. ---
**Author:** ![MalcomReynolds\_Serenity](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malcomreynolds_serenity/32/385107_2.png) [@MalcomReynolds\_Serenity](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MalcomReynolds_Serenity)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1962 "2021-11-28T21:40:48Z")
actually I bet you that was definitely the goal - but that has the potential problem of impacting PI prices even more making it more easy to ship in moon ore than on its own. Seems like a pretty harsh thing to hit PI producers with just to placate miners wanting 150k of basic minerals replaced with something ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1963 "2021-11-28T21:46:02Z")
Ok; here’s the thing. You sound bitter and frustrated with the way things have gone for EVE. In particular, I detect that this latest round of changes is something you would have addressed very differently, had you been in charge of it (you, and many others in this thread). But you don’t get to make those calls. Vent, harangue, do whatever you must, but this game is really a very little fish in a monstrously large pool. Hitherto, your posts have shown that you are actually even-handed about the changes, which is a sign that not _everything_ is an unmitigated disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Chan\_aar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/chan_aar/32/377560_2.png) [@Chan\_aar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Chan_aar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1964 "2021-11-28T21:56:30Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > They **do not** understand their game This and the rest of the post that goes with it is absolutely terriflying. ---
**Author:** ![Kenrailae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenrailae/32/494205_2.png) [@Kenrailae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenrailae)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887/1965 "2021-11-28T22:02:22Z")
Especially once you factor in that outside of not understanding the incredibly thing that Eve is, _then_ you start piling on those with agendas, or those who understand their department/area but nothing else, or just how much of the coding they don’t understand and how it interacts with the rest of the coding… I can’t criticize that last one too harshly though. The best I can do is a simple discord reply bot after hours of working on it. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=95) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/from-extraction-to-production-update/337887.md?page=97)