# \[GalFed\] The Liberation of Viriette and Fislipesnes **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 10, 2022, 12:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805 "2022-11-10T00:48:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jace\_Sarice](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jace_sarice/32/342202_2.png) [@Jace\_Sarice](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jace_Sarice)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 12:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/42 "2022-11-12T12:31:58Z")
The Federation has never resolved the infection of its extremists. The so-called ultra-nationalists may not have regained power since their demise, but their thoughts and ideas are still an undercurrent in the Federation’s actions and always have been. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/43 "2022-11-12T13:49:09Z")
> [@Marcus\_Ulpius\_Trajanus](#): > > Does it ever concern you that you so often make claims from absence rather than from evidence? I’m not making a claim. I’m cautioning _against_ making claims. > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > And why shouldn’t he? The Caldari are, above all else, a practical people. They understand oppression is a facet of their everyday life and survive however they can. So, I say that it’s an understandable position, and you react like I’m accusing him of being a propagandist… while saying the Caldari face oppression in their everyday lives. The Caldari I know don’t consider the megacorporate structure to be ‘oppressive’. So what oppression are you citing? ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/44 "2022-11-12T14:59:07Z")
> [@Jace\_Sarice](#): > > The Federation has never resolved the infection of its extremists. The so-called ultra-nationalists may not have regained power since their demise, but their thoughts and ideas are still an undercurrent in the Federation’s actions and always have been. The Federation is a democracy. There will always be undercurrents, some desirable and others not. Undercurrents do not govern the actions of the whole, however and the beauty of the design is that an idea cannot take hold unless the majority share it. Is it a perfect system? No. But it is a system that self-polices quite well and lessons tend to remain fresh because those most affected by mistakes remember them longer and keep them on the minds of the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Jace\_Sarice](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jace_sarice/32/342202_2.png) [@Jace\_Sarice](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jace_Sarice)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 11:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/45 "2022-11-12T23:22:32Z")
It’s a system designed to pass the blame. There are always participants in the supposedly democratic process that can be scapegoats to protect the self-importance of the system. It is a broken system, but the excuses will never stop. It’s time that the Federation and its loyalists gain some self-awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/46 "2022-11-13T00:20:31Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The Caldari I know don’t consider the megacorporate structure to be ‘oppressive’. So what oppression are you citing? Are all the Caldari you know Capsuleers? The super-rich are hardly an indicator of the common person’s plight. You should be well aware of the degree of socioeconomic oppression faced by the common person of the State. Employment in a megacorporation is mandatory for citizenship, suicide rates are sky-high, and there are an entire caste of people referred to as non-entities that have been almost entirely dispossessed. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/47 "2022-11-13T00:40:20Z")
> [@Imrik\_Schereau](#): > > The Federation is a democracy. There will always be undercurrents, some desirable and others not. Undercurrents do not govern the actions of the whole, however and the beauty of the design is that an idea cannot take hold unless the majority share it. Was the decision to invade Intaki made by the majority? No, it was made by a single person being advised by possibly a few dozen others. Who can say how many among the Federal Security Council are ultra-nationalists? The same question can be raised about the Military Commission or even the Senate itself. All of these organizations are a minority of the Fed’s population but exercise almost all of its power. Don’t be quick to dismiss “undercurrents” just because they’re hard to see under the tide. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 12:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/48 "2022-11-13T00:47:13Z")
You raise valid points but I should clarify that my intent isn’t to dismiss but to discuss. It is true that a minority of persons can cause great damage in the Federal system if those persons are in the right positions but it is also true that the system has in place methods for minimizing, correcting and defending against repeat failures. It’s a daring system of government and one that is still adapting and growing. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 12:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/49 "2022-11-13T00:54:19Z")
It’s a system designed to be policed by the population of the Federation. It’s greatest failing is when the population is either ignorant (willfully or otherwise) or swayed by momentary passions and sentiments. Both of these things happen and yes, the population can be manipulated and deceived. The reality is that even with its potential for corruption and abuse, the democratic heart of the Federation lends itself to self correction because corruption can be shuffled out through the political process. In order for corruption to remain in power, a significant number of persons across a significant number of careers and paths of life would have to all be working in tandem at once to bypass, manipulate and ignore the will of the people. This would include (but isn’t limited to): politicians, military advisors, media personnel, GalNet authorities, educational personnel and others. It isn’t indicative of a lack of self awareness to strive for the ideal while recognizing the reality. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 1:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/50 "2022-11-13T01:16:13Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Are all the Caldari you know Capsuleers? The super-rich are hardly an indicator of the common person’s plight. You should be well aware of the degree of socioeconomic oppression faced by the common person of the State. Employment in a megacorporation is mandatory for citizenship, suicide rates are sky-high, and there are an entire caste of people referred to as non-entities that have been almost entirely dispossessed. I’m aware of all of that, having lived and worked in the State for a number of years. And no, I got to know a number of Caldari baseliners during that time: hangar techs, workers, ship’s crews… That doesn’t address the issue, though: you or I might consider the things you talk about ‘oppression’, but do the Caldari? From what we’ve seen over the last three years, even the labor organizers among baseliner Caldari populations don’t want to upend the megacorporate structure, just tweak it a bit. In addition, suicide’s considered an honorable choice, no matter what you or I might think of it. That’s a cultural tradition that goes back to the harshest winters of the Collapse years on Caldari Prime. When it’s culturally acceptable—and _preferential_ to poor performance or failure to meet obligations, in a lot of cases—then it’s going to be more common than it would in cultures where people are raised to think of it as terrible. It’s not for you or I to say their culture is wrong or ‘oppressive’. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Ulpius\_Trajanus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_ulpius_trajanus/32/324755_2.png) [@Marcus\_Ulpius\_Trajanus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Ulpius_Trajanus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/51 "2022-11-13T02:50:41Z")
You don’t need to habitually do anything once you’ve instilled the fear through a precedent. This is something we learn in Syndicate early on growing up. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 3:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/52 "2022-11-13T03:27:45Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Employment in a megacorporation is mandatory for citizenship, suicide rates are sky-high, and there are an entire caste of people referred to as non-entities that have been almost entirely dispossessed. The Caldari aren’t really believers in maintaining dependents who can’t help the community, Mr. Redmane. If food runs short in winter, sending the elderly to take a “walk in the snow” and thereafter treating them as dead is an old custom. And that’s for those who have contributed all their lives. It’s not a kind custom, and the Caldari do continue to do such things even with winter no longer such a terrible threat, but it’s of a piece with their outlook. Individual lives weigh lightly. Generations live not for themselves, but for those who’ll follow. In time death comes for every individual, but, whatever happens, the Caldari survive. I may be a dissident, and worse, but I can’t look at the Caldari idea of strength and call it weakness. Or “oppression.” ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 4:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/53 "2022-11-13T04:14:57Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m aware of all of that, having lived and worked in the State for a number of years. And no, I got to know a number of Caldari baseliners during that time: hangar techs, workers, ship’s crews… That doesn’t address the issue, though: you or I might consider the things you talk about ‘oppression’, but do the Caldari? From what we’ve seen over the last three years, even the labor organizers among baseliner Caldari populations don’t want to upend the megacorporate structure, just tweak it a bit. Even that sample of people is composed of skilled laborers with job security and a consistent wage. How many of us would encounter or speak to the down-trodden of Caldari society? Addressing your other point: I never implied that the Caldari would or should desire to overthrow their own culture in its entirety. I wouldn’t want to destroy the Federation even if tyranny had seized its heart. I would make an effort toward change because that’s the practical thing to do. > [@Arrendis](#): > > In addition, suicide’s considered an honorable choice, no matter what you or I might think of it. That’s a cultural tradition that goes back to the harshest winters of the Collapse years on Caldari Prime. When it’s culturally acceptable—and _preferential_ to poor performance or failure to meet obligations, in a lot of cases—then it’s going to be more common than it would in cultures where people are raised to think of it as terrible. > > It’s not for you or I to say their culture is wrong or ‘oppressive’. I’m not the biggest fan of moral relativism. There is an objective concept of oppression, particularly on-going abusive or unjust treatment. It’s not something unique to the Caldari or their economically under-performing undesirables. Even the Federation can be described as culturally oppressive in many ways and the idea of a “tyranny of the majority” is a very real danger even in a democratic society. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 4:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/54 "2022-11-13T04:49:46Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Individual lives weigh lightly. Generations live not for themselves, but for those who’ll follow. In time death comes for every individual, but, whatever happens, the Caldari survive. That’s quite a dangerous and callous dismissal of life in general, especially from the deathless. The Caldari State would survive even if 90% of its population disappeared overnight. I’m sure you would prefer that didn’t happen, but it’s true. The State clearly values human life and autonomy, else it would be something more akin to Kuvakei’s abomination-state. Whether it values human life as much as it should is more of a case-by-case question. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I may be a dissident, and worse, but I can’t look at the Caldari idea of strength and call it weakness. Or “oppression.” I never called it weakness. I stand by naming it oppression. What else can you call it when a collective of individuals determine that one among their number is not worthy of life? An old man sacrificing himself for his family is a noble thing. A young man being expected to ritually destroy himself because his subdivision failed to meet quotas is another thing altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 4:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/55 "2022-11-13T04:59:39Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > That’s quite a dangerous and callous dismissal of life in general, especially from the deathless. Yeah, because you know, Caldari capsuleers are born clones. > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > What else can you call it when a collective of individuals determine that one among their number is not worthy of life? Collectivism? > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Even that sample of people is composed of skilled laborers Yes, the people with the job of ‘move pallets of crap around’ were highly-trained. 🙄 > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > How many of us would encounter or speak to the down-trodden of Caldari society? I don’t know. _Have_ you spoken _to_ the people you’re presuming to speak _for_? ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 5:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/56 "2022-11-13T05:11:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Yeah, because you know, Caldari capsuleers are born clones. Not all Caldari share the same ideals, least of all the dispossessed. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Collectivism? What is tyranny if not exclusive collectivism? > [@Arrendis](#): > > Yes, the people with the job of ‘move pallets of crap around’ were highly-trained. 🙄 In space? Absolutely. How many complex subsystems do you think they rely on to do their job? Who keeps them running? > [@Arrendis](#): > > I don’t know. _Have_ you spoken _to_ the people you’re presuming to speak _for_? A valid response, but one that misses the rhetorical nature of the question. If I stepped out of my capsule into the streets of a city on Caldari Prime all I have to do to find the down-trodden is follow the utility lines. I could supply you with an anecdote, but what good is that? Suffice it to say: It’s unlikely you will find many positive opinions about the State in the depths of their urban sprawl. Even if they could escape what awaits them, a short tenure with the Guristas before being destroyed by one of us? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 5:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/57 "2022-11-13T05:30:04Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Not all Caldari share the same ideals, least of all the dispossessed. No, but saying that the values people learn as they’re growing up can be written off because of the idiotic ‘deathless’ delusion most capsuleers have… that’s just ridiculous. > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > What is tyranny if not exclusive collectivism? Really? So a singular monarch can’t be tyrannical, because it needs collectivism, rather than simply being those in power using that power to inflict needless and aberrant harm on those beneath them? > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > In space? In a hangar, on a station, in space. As opposed to in a hangar, on a planet, in space. > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > How many complex subsystems do you think they rely on to do their job? 2 station lifts and a pallet-jack. > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Who keeps them running? Station maintenance technicians, who are very much _not_ those laborers. (Though in the case of the pallet-jack, it’s literally a simple mechanical jack on a set of 4 rollers, so they probably _do_ perform percussive maintenance on them… but they shouldn’t.) > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > A valid response, but one that misses the rhetorical nature of the question. Except mine wasn’t rhetorical. _Have_ you? > [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > I could supply you with an anecdote, but what good is that? Well, for one thing, it’d demonstrate that you’d made an effort to actually get first-hand information, and not just rely on Federal generalizations about the Caldari people. Suffice it to say, your say-so’s sufficiency seems, sadly, short. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 6:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/58 "2022-11-13T06:21:40Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Really? So a singular monarch can’t be tyrannical, because it needs collectivism, rather than simply being those in power using that power to inflict needless and aberrant harm on those beneath them? A monarch does not act alone. They maintain retainers that benefit from their social position. Feudalism is not enacted by a single person, but many. > [@Arrendis](#): > > 2 station lifts and a pallet-jack. Hardly. Swarms of drones and a battalion of computers are necessary to manage even the most backwater station’s logistics system. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, for one thing, it’d demonstrate that you’d made an effort to actually get first-hand information, and not just rely on Federal generalizations about the Caldari people. Suffice it to say, your say-so’s sufficiency seems, sadly, short. So which is it then: Is an anecdote worth reciting or is it just my “say-so”? ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 8:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/59 "2022-11-13T08:22:40Z")
It seems to be a common Federal view that given the option the workers would of course choose freedom. But, that’s not always so. Caldari Laborers and Technicians are not at all the same as Gallentean workers. If anything, they’re more steadfastly traditionalist than the management castes. We’ve heard the voice of the Caldari street speak loudly in the recent past. Tibus Heth was their great populist leader. It led to some important reforms but it also led to … a lot of other things. Did you like seeing the priorities of Caldari workers raised to the level of policy, Mr. Redmane? I’m not at all sure you’d like the results if it happened again as much as you seem to think. You’re literally still fighting the consequences of the last time that happened to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 9:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/60 "2022-11-13T09:15:11Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Did you like seeing the priorities of Caldari workers raised to the level of policy, Mr. Redmane? I’m not at all sure you’d like the results if it happened again as much as you seem to think. You’re literally still fighting the consequences of the last time that happened to this day. Would you care to be more specific? The Federation has instated trade restriction policies on Caldari corporations more than once, though it is often ineffective at best. Besides, even those that work in terrible conditions usually have homes and the bare minimum resources necessary to eat. What becomes of those who fall beneath subsistence? Nothing good, and it is a fate from which very few escape. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805/61 "2022-11-13T12:51:54Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Would you care to be more specific? She is being in this case specific, if very slightly oblique. Last time Caldari policy reflected the popular zeal of the Caldari worker, the State mobilised and acted in ways I suspect you would rather not see repeated. In the State as much as among my people, Gallente ideologues seem most ardently opposed to the strongest restraining influences. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/galfed-the-liberation-of-viriette-and-fislipesnes/383805.md?page=4)