# Ganking and PVP: Numbers in perspective **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 30, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852 "2022-07-30T15:48:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elizabet_forgrave/32/457166_2.png) [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elizabet_Forgrave)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/601 "2022-12-16T14:44:48Z")
Why is that needed though? We’re all here with our own opinions. If you feel someone’s view doesn’t have any merit simply because you can’t see their kills on a billboard then don’t respond to it. Accusing them of being a sockpuppet or criticizing their killboard stats is not a constructive way to continue a discussion. I have no idea what your killboard is like, because I don’t care. I don’t even care what views you’ve posted elsewhere or whether or not you are posting as both you and as Aiko, I take your views here on their own merit, not shaded by some unrelated and mostly unobtainable factors. ---
**Author:** ![Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wes_wyhunnan/32/409400_2.png) [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wes_Wyhunnan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/603 "2022-12-16T14:49:02Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > posting as both you and as Aiko, I @Aiko_Danuja she got us. There are actually only two posters on the entire forum. @Aiko_Danuja and @Lucas_Kell They need to meet in a cage match and finish this once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/604 "2022-12-16T14:50:40Z")
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I took a position about participating in the community honestly, with at least a consistent forum-posting character identity. And if the topic is specific gameplay, some sort of ability for others to relate _that character’s_ identity to the experience of that gameplay. That line is often deliberately obscured, which makes honest debate difficult if not outright impossible. Others cannot evaluate _that characters’_ statements in any context of gameplay experience, so people are free to project whatever they want, and _that character_ is free to say whatever they want, without accountability and responsibility. My position is that this degrades community discourse here. You say “so what, discuss ideas and not people” to all that. OK, but that’s not what I’m saying. The above _is about_ discussing ideas. People evaluate ideas in a context. When that context is clear, criticisms _are about the idea_. When the context is unclear, criticisms are _about making the context clear_. “I think the color red is ugly and should never be used” carries an awfully different meaning when followed by “and I’m an artist with art in MOMA” versus “and I’m completely blind all my life” versus “I’m completely blind all my life, but deliberately am not telling anyone that and pretending I’m not blind and pretending I’m an artist with art in MOMA”. I’m sure those spawn 3 very different conversations. If you’re truly about “talking about ideas not people” then you’d want to be sure you weren’t being duped and all participants at some common baseline of understanding – as opposed to someone who claims to know colors but has never seen one in their life. ---
**Author:** ![Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mindahouf_davaham/32/379996_2.png) [@Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mindahouf_Davaham)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/605 "2022-12-16T14:51:14Z")
why do I keep geting call an aiko alt ---
**Author:** ![Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wes_wyhunnan/32/409400_2.png) [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wes_Wyhunnan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/606 "2022-12-16T14:53:03Z")
Because everyone who thinks Eve should be dangerous is an alt of Aiko, and everyone who thinks Eve should be Mining and Hauling Simulator 2000 is an alt of Lucas. It’s very West Side Story. When you’re a Jet, you’re a Jet for life. ---
**Author:** ![Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mindahouf_davaham/32/379996_2.png) [@Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mindahouf_Davaham)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/607 "2022-12-16T14:53:49Z")
What if I think should be a bit of both worlds ---
**Author:** ![Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elizabet_forgrave/32/457166_2.png) [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elizabet_Forgrave)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/608 "2022-12-16T14:55:00Z")
That was just an example, I wasn’t saying you are Aiko, only that it would not affect how I judge your views if you were. I care about the topic not about the identities of the people involved. ---
**Author:** ![Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wes_wyhunnan/32/409400_2.png) [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wes_Wyhunnan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/609 "2022-12-16T14:55:47Z")
> [@Mindahouf\_Davaham](#): > > What if I think should be a bit of both worlds No! You pick a hill and you die on it! As an easy metric, if you think you should fight to keep your hill, you’re Aiko. If you think your hill should have a completely safe place at the top where no one can bother you, you’re Lucas. ---
**Author:** ![Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mindahouf_davaham/32/379996_2.png) [@Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mindahouf_Davaham)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/610 "2022-12-16T14:56:10Z")
what if I find my on hill ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/611 "2022-12-16T14:56:36Z")
People who truly care about the topic _also_ care about the people involved in the conversation, because we’re talking about affecting peoples’ recreational pasttimes. And there is overlap between conversational participant and people affected by the ideas. To be honest, ignoring the human part of the equation is a red flag, not a sign of “enlightened debate”. ---
**Author:** ![Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wes_wyhunnan/32/409400_2.png) [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wes_Wyhunnan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/612 "2022-12-16T14:58:38Z")
> [@Mindahouf\_Davaham](#): > > what if I find my on hill Good question. Do you like your hill? Do you feel like you put in effort to earn your hill, and that your ability to brave the wilds and climb to the top of the hill on your own merit is important to you? Then you are Aiko. If you think CCP should give everyone Hill and keep you off of other peoples hills, you’re Lucas. ---
**Author:** ![Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mindahouf_davaham/32/379996_2.png) [@Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mindahouf_Davaham)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/613 "2022-12-16T15:00:37Z")
What if I do both ---
**Author:** ![Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elizabet_forgrave/32/457166_2.png) [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elizabet_Forgrave)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/614 "2022-12-16T15:04:08Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > People who truly care about the topic _also_ care about the people involved in the conversation, because we’re talking about affecting peoples’ recreational pasttimes. And there is overlap between conversational participant and people affected by the ideas. So if I don’t; care about the person speaking then I don’t care about the topic? Then I show I care by claiming that someone isn’t who they say they are? OK I’ll give it a try. Post on your main rather than this sock puppet. Did I do it right? ---
**Author:** ![Keara\_the\_Reaver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keara_the_reaver/32/344828_2.png) [@Keara\_the\_Reaver](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keara_the_Reaver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/615 "2022-12-16T15:04:37Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > And if the topic is specific gameplay, some sort of ability for others to relate _that character’s_ identity to the experience of that gameplay. Why? Is the topic better explored, the arguments more valid when it’s possible to identify the player in the game? How? For example, I have no experience in ganking yet, but if I say “the outcome of a gank is determined before it even happens” ( maybe I read it somewhere, maybe I agree not because I experienced it but because it makes sense to me based on text or video I watched…) In what way would that statement be wrong by virtue of the identity behind the character? > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > That line is often deliberately obscured, which makes honest debate difficult if not outright impossible We’re having a debate now and even if you don’t know who I am in-game, it doesn’t prevent you from arguing and it doesn’t prevent me from liking our exchange. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Others cannot evaluate _that characters’_ statements in any context of gameplay experience, so people are free to project whatever they want, and _that character_ is free to say whatever they want, without accountability and responsibility I understand that but you will always have that online unless they make everyone go through a thumbprint and retinal scan log-in. Forums are supposed to have extravagant statements, banter, embellishments… and it’s a game forum, should be no hard feelings, like PvP: “gf” yeah, that was fun, bye-bye that cruiser I’ll get me another one. Not going at each other’s throat because one says 10% but maybe it’s 25%… I guess I’m saying, lighten up y’all ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/616 "2022-12-16T15:05:17Z")
> [@Keara\_the\_Reaver](#): > > For example, I have no experience in ganking yet, but if I say “the outcome of a gank is determined before it even happens” n what way would that statement be wrong by virtue of the identity behind the character? It is wrong because you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Identity matters, because some people are ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Keara\_the\_Reaver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keara_the_reaver/32/344828_2.png) [@Keara\_the\_Reaver](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keara_the_Reaver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/617 "2022-12-16T15:08:59Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > It is wrong because you don’t have a clue what you are talking about And you don’t have a clue who I am, so we’re even 😃 > [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > Identity matters, because some people are ignorant smh 😅 ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/618 "2022-12-16T15:09:07Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > Why is that needed though See below > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > In practice, anonymous places like 4chan (and spinoffs) are anything but eloquent, candid, constructive, and enlightened debate. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/619 "2022-12-16T15:13:10Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > > > People who truly care about the topic _also_ care about the people involved in the conversation, because we’re talking about affecting peoples’ recreational pasttimes. And there is overlap between conversational participant and people affected by the ideas. > > > > To be honest, ignoring the human part of the equation is a red flag, not a sign of “enlightened debate”. > > So if I don’t; care about the person speaking then I don’t care about the topic? Then I show I care by claiming that someone isn’t who they say they are? > > OK I’ll give it a try. Post on your main rather than this sock puppet. > > Did I do it right? No. Please try to take my words in good faith understanding, instead of simply adding red flags. My above post on understanding context, describes how people try to build context around debate, and this is where the “sockpuppet” accusion comes into play as a consequence – which is a very strongly harsh inflammatory formulation of 1 of the 3 conversations able to be had as highlighted in the final example: > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > I took a position about participating in the community honestly, with at least a consistent forum-posting character identity. And if the topic is specific gameplay, some sort of ability for others to relate _that character’s_ identity to the experience of that gameplay. That line is often deliberately obscured, which makes honest debate difficult if not outright impossible. Others cannot evaluate _that characters’_ statements in any context of gameplay experience, so people are free to project whatever they want, and _that character_ is free to say whatever they want, without accountability and responsibility. My position is that this degrades community discourse here. > > You say “so what, discuss ideas and not people” to all that. OK, but that’s not what I’m saying. The above _is about_ discussing ideas. People evaluate ideas in a context. When that context is clear, criticisms _are about the idea_. When the context is unclear, criticisms are _about making the context clear_. > > “I think the color red is ugly and should never be used” carries an awfully different meaning when followed by “and I’m an artist with art in MOMA” versus “and I’m completely blind all my life” versus “I’m completely blind all my life, but deliberately am not telling anyone that and pretending I’m not blind and pretending I’m an artist with art in MOMA”. I’m sure those spawn 3 very different conversations. If you’re truly about “talking about ideas not people” then you’d want to be sure you weren’t being duped and all participants at some common baseline of understanding – as opposed to someone who claims to know colors but has never seen one in their life. If we’re all good-faith actors here, we’d care about collaborating to respond to “sockpuppet” style of accusations in a way that _builds a shared context_ (I.e. “here is my main gameplay character” but there are other ways to _constructively_ respond to this that is _collaborative_ and builds understanding) so that we have a context we all understand, and from then productively moving onto the concrete idea discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elizabet_forgrave/32/457166_2.png) [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elizabet_Forgrave)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/620 "2022-12-16T15:24:47Z")
I am trying to take your words in good faith but I’m confused because the criteria for being called a sock puppet seems to be poorly defined. I’ve been registered and active on the forum for years, though mostly reading and liking. I have a killboard though not recent as I built a minmatar alt for PvP, and most of that killboard involves going after gankers so it shows I’ve been involved in one side of the ganking gameplay. I could expose my alt, but why should I? I don’t think it would stop any of the criticism and it would just open up another avenue for retaliation which I’m not interested in. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/621 "2022-12-16T15:54:04Z")
> [@Clone\_Nr007](#): > > I’m an actual character in the game too. Every character is a character in the game. 🙄 That is not true. Many forum posters’ characters, like mine, doesn’t exists in game because they were biomassed 😉 _(result of the alpha ganking nerfs, had to biomass my neutral trade/logistic toons to get additional ganker toon)_ [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852.md?page=24) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852.md?page=26)