# Ganking and PVP: Numbers in perspective **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 30, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852 "2022-07-30T15:48:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 2:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/683 "2022-12-17T02:45:39Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > The data does not show what you claim. It does. Get over it. I’m not going to argue the point as you have yourself single handedly led me to consider your ‘opinion’ on the matter totally utterly worthless. So shout ’ Ain’t so’ all you like. > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > You are making implications based on it but the data does not make that implication objectively. So it is purely a _coincidence_ that two people both have 3 years of absence from killboard after 2016…and then both have new records in 2019 _within 2 days of each other_…only to both disappear from killboard again for another 3 years ? ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 2:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/684 "2022-12-17T02:49:31Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > So it is purely a _coincidence_ It is also a coincidence that everyone blocked Lucas Kell, and now there is a mystery alt continuing where Lucas left off. It’s almost like he knows we blocked him, and he is continuing to try to talk to us. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/685 "2022-12-17T02:50:04Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > It is a known fact that many gankers use many alts to gank with, so what evidence is there that most gankers here aren’t also alts being used to manipulate perception? If you want evidence, you can simply ask the posters you suspect are alts to get into a Discord with you and check for yourself, or play within their open communities, and be able to recognize each poster individually. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 2:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/686 "2022-12-17T02:54:44Z")
The killboard is basically a CAPTCHA test to ensure you are talking to an actual individual, rather than another sockpuppet troll. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 2:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/687 "2022-12-17T02:57:52Z")
Another interesting ‘coincidence’. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/e/8/8e8a36d56e5c62db8947f2466ce36036b0e44082.png) Two individuals, neither with an active killboard, both making identical arguments using identical reasoning and identical words and identical grammar and identical regional dialects, both with the same identical paranoid concern that someone might be trying to search their posting history in order to discern whether there is any similarity. There’s only like a dozen people actively using this forum. Gee, I wonder who this is. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 3:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/688 "2022-12-17T03:03:25Z")
The real issue, which I hope the mods will appreciate, is that in a thread that is _all about fairness_ it is really _not_ fair if one side is posting as their regular selves with consistent characters that are well known and the only ones that post here at all…while the other side brings on unknown alt after unknown alt to try to bolster the idea that there is larger support than actually exists. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 3:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/689 "2022-12-17T03:20:40Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > One form of trolling is “I need to see more data” trolling - this individual indicates they are interested in “the truth” and merely want to see “data”. In fact, they have no desire to be objective, and their goal is to simply waste your time, encouraging you to put more effort into a lengthy “debate”. In the case of Elizabeth, if you block her, she will return with a new sockpuppet. The fact that this incredibly subjective moving goalpost was tossed out, (highlighted for convenience) > [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > To change my opinion I’d need to see data that **proved beyond a doubt** Just validates that Elizabeth has absolutely no interest in any data presented, and no amount of data will ever satisfy the “proved beyond a doubt” clause. It’s as you said, its designed to wasted your time while hiding behind a screen of being “genuine.” ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 4:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/690 "2022-12-17T04:01:54Z")
@ISD_Dorrim_Barstorlode Regrettably this thread is in dire need of a complete cleaning, the ad infinitum of off-topic replies mixed with personal attacks, harassments, sarcastic innuendo’s and outright lies gangbanged upon others has completely derailed this thread off it’s tracks. And with the grace of our CCP Overlords, please please issue some discrete warnings to those habitual posters… By the way, thank you very much for all your hard work… ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 4:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/691 "2022-12-17T04:05:01Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > this thread is in dire need of a complete cleaning Is it? I’m honestly not sure the ISD should waste their time. None of us are here for an actual debate. You want to provide a completely uninformed emotional appeal to attack the ingame playstyle of people who you refuse to even try and fight ingame, and we want to point out that this is all you are doing. There is no actual debate over ganking itself. You aren’t even remotely willing to listen to an objective argument about why ganking is legitimate and should be permitted by CCP, while we aren’t even remotely interested in your constant whining and exaggerated polemics. ---
**Author:** ![Jayce\_Fitzpatrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jayce_fitzpatrick/32/383289_2.png) [@Jayce\_Fitzpatrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jayce_Fitzpatrick)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 4:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/693 "2022-12-17T04:14:07Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > a forum that barely anyone visits? But now that we focus on keeping newbies safe, new people will show up because only the bad gankers held back the enjoyment of that sweet highsec PvE, right…? Right…? ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 4:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/694 "2022-12-17T04:18:08Z")
![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/d/f/0dfe17bbcf97819ab55e26b6b4408df56fd0a462.png) ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/e/b/8ebe54f77243a87228f3762ad680abeb61bd471f.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 5:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/695 "2022-12-17T05:13:32Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > has completely derailed this thread off it’s tracks There were never any tracks…just a big hole that one side dug deeper and deeper and then fell into along with the Morningtown train. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 5:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/696 "2022-12-17T05:24:46Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > To change my opinion I’d need to see data that proved beyond a doubt that there was a positive impact on the game from ganking new players. … which leads me to conclude that your opinion is not based on data either… which entails that we are lead to discussing your opinion for the heck of it, even if it’s widely off topic. … which also leads me to conclude that you wouldn’t change your opinion if it was demonstrated there is a lack of _negative_ impact from ganking new players. … would you also like to see data that scarcity had a positive impact on the game ? or hisec triglavians and diamond rats from FOB’s ? would you like to see if the removal of ore types from hisec has a positive impact ? Or are you just being extremely selective on what may have an impact on the game population/pcu ? … we all know (or should, at the very least) that there are no datasets publicly available to justify any conclusions on just about any perceived or real question about population impact. At most and at best one sees trends over longer periods or when something dramatic occurs. Ganking in hisec is not a dramatic event, whichever way you look at it over a period of 2 decades. Not every loss of a ship is coupled to a loss in subscription. Or do you claim it is and have the data to show for it ? If you want solid answers, the best way is to get a data analysis job at CCP. Even then, the quality i.e., reliability of the conclusions will never exceed the quality of any dataset. There’s rarely a 1 on 1 relationship between parameters in a setting with hundreds of parameters active at the same time. And, you won’t be permitted to do the necessary experiments to test your conclusion and make it solid… In conclusion: a merry-go-round to discuss your opinion, which is neither more nor less valuable than any other opinion but can’t be proven or refuted based on solid analysis, is a waste of thread space really. Moreover, it sets a grim mood. Not constructive at all. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 7:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/697 "2022-12-17T07:58:26Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > a forum that barely anyone visits The forum is a pretty sad shell of it’s former self currently, though crap me I’m spending too much time on Reddit: ![reddit_recap_card5](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/9/8/898696be6c6636c58f602817cfc192a701e266d2.png) ---
**Author:** ![Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elizabet_forgrave/32/457166_2.png) [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elizabet_Forgrave)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 8:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/698 "2022-12-17T08:56:19Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > There is also no source of data proving that ganking causes any issue. Since the burden of proof is logically placed upon the individual asserting a claim, it is up to you to prove your case. The burden of proof is on CCP then I guess. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > It does. Get over it. I’m not going to argue the point I don’t believe you are correct. The data you’ve selected does not prove the claim you are making. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > So it is purely a _coincidence_ Yeah, must be. I haven’t stopped playing since I started, so I’m not sure what else it could be. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > The real issue, which I hope the mods will appreciate, is that in a thread that is _all about fairness_ it is really _not_ fair if one side is posting as their regular selves with consistent The real issue is that you aren’t willing to discuss the topic, you keep insulting anyone you disagree with. It’s why in response to me saying that " _I think it is better, more engaging gameplay to incentivise ganking high-value targets over new players_" you have criticised my killboard and called me a sock puppet. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > which leads me to conclude that your opinion is not based on data either… I never claimed it was. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > a merry-go-round to discuss your opinion, which is neither more nor less valuable than any other opinion but can’t be proven or refuted based on solid analysis, is a waste of thread space really. That’s the whole forum, it’s all people giving their opinions. The difference is that here there are a few people who support ganking who think they have a duty to change other people’s opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 10:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/699 "2022-12-17T10:30:12Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > I’m going to block you. Did you change your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Keginu\_Nelir\_Shimaya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keginu_nelir_shimaya/32/355594_2.png) [@Keginu\_Nelir\_Shimaya](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keginu_Nelir_Shimaya)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 10:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/700 "2022-12-17T10:46:03Z")
And what difference does it make if ganking is a problem or not, since for so many years of playing EVE, Princess Aiko couldn’t gank me well even once, and she’s been talking about how she ganks me since I can remember. And this is proof. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 10:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/701 "2022-12-17T10:51:28Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > That’s the whole forum, it’s all people giving their opinions. The difference is that here there are a few people who support ganking who think they have a duty to change other people’s opinions. And you feel it’s your duty to change their opinion ? Or do you think it’s your duty to oppose them ? What about some honesty, and politely disappear from a forum after giving your opinion, perhaps even after elaborating a few of the finer points of your opinion ? Already told you: you won’t have the final word. Unlike you I do appreciate people giving their opinions. It is interesting to know how other people experience something one has in common with them. That’s the whole purpose of a forum. They are very different from other people who use this or any other thread for their _ **personal activism** _. Those people trigger a negative response, and many of them, like the person you’ve been accused of being or at least mimicking, do it on purpose. And since you are not discussing an opinion based on any data - your own words - then what is your real purpose of repeating repeating repeating ? To show the world you can stand up for free forum speech and won’t be “bullied” into silence by people who tell you that you’re wrong or misrepresenting a situation for your own _ **politicizing** _ of the matter ? Any forum moderator can “bully” you into silence, m8, when it’s time to close an unraveled thread. Like this one. And it’s high time it gets closed. Like that other fellah, the one who isn’t you, always managed to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/702 "2022-12-17T11:11:51Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > people who use this or any other thread for their _ **personal activism** _. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > what is your real purpose of repeating repeating repeating ? I think the issue with these people is they don’t actually play EvE Online. Not really, maybe they station spin or check out a new ship, but that’s it. However, these people were ganked years ago, and perhaps they were laughed at by someone who has long since forgotten about them. Consquently, they still hold this grudge, this bitter animosity toward gankers, the G_REEEEE_FERS. However, since they aren’t willing to undock or play the game, they can’t get revenge in game… So they’ve committed themself to a quest, a FORUM CRUSADE. They will “defeat” the gankers via the METAGAME, by constantly spamming us with repetitive statements. They will do everything they can to bait you into insulting them, and then they will whine and cry and flag your post. If you block them, they will make a new alt, and come back to try again. They will do this even it destroys the game. Lucas Kell literally said that he hopes EvE dies, and he is happy to play his part in destroying the game. That’s pretty much a direct quote. There’s a reason he decided to hide his forum history, because he knows people are looking back at his previous statements and comparing notes. He just isn’t interested in an honest discussion of game balance, or protecting new players. This is about REVENGE. Revenge not against you, or me, but against the MEANIE BULLIES who triggered him years and years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Keginu\_Nelir\_Shimaya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keginu_nelir_shimaya/32/355594_2.png) [@Keginu\_Nelir\_Shimaya](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keginu_Nelir_Shimaya)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/703 "2022-12-17T11:21:29Z")
instead of creating another pile of stupid projections and assumptions, why don’t you finally get Aiko to work? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852.md?page=28) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852.md?page=30)