# Ganking and PVP: Numbers in perspective **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 30, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852 "2022-07-30T15:48:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bob\_Mo\_rane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bob_mo_rane/32/333433_2.png) [@Bob\_Mo\_rane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bob_Mo_rane)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 11:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/107 "2022-09-27T11:02:52Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > But the true purpose was in any case to show that _even with_ allowing such wildly liberal levels of ganking we still see that the huge majority of leavers have NOT left due to ganking…because they were not ganked ! Exactly right. Players don’t leave because they get ganked. I was ganked last week. Did I leave? No. Only the crybabies want people to believe that fairy tale because they want to put the game on automatic while they watch a movie and eat chips. The day CCP removes ganking from the game is the day it shall really be dead. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 12:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/108 "2022-09-27T12:11:32Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > To the extent that we can definitively state that ganking is not the major cause of noobs leaving. Well again, the thread isn’t about “noob ganking”, it’s about ganking, in general. And as I’ve stated before, my _personal_ belief (and experience) is that _discussions_ about ganking seem to generate more passion and activity than I believed was justified by the _actual amount_ of ganking. Looking at the issue from various angles (we checked ship types, top gankers records, top ganking alliance records, corp records, etc.) has shown _me_ at least that the total extent of ganking is larger than I originally thought. Probably a fair bit larger, but still not huge. So yes players are getting ganked. No, I can’t find anything that would indicate new players are at all likely to be ganked within their first 2 weeks (which is when the vast majority of them quit). I haven’t yet summarized the observations I made while doing this, but a couple of quick ones would be: - The chance of ganking any given person at any given time seems quite small. Thus, despite all the talk about it, something like (wild guess) 95% of all activity in high sec is probably undisturbed by gankers. - However even if only say 2% are at risk of ganks, 2% of “a _lot_ of activity” can still be a high absolute number. - The ISK values involved go quite high. So I’d say the true impact of ganks is less on new players and cheap ships, and more on the effect on players who _have_ committed to EVE, _have_ played for a while, have built some assets - and then lose a fair chunk of them to a gank. That said, I don’t feel ganking is the primary cause of losing players in EVE. I don’t think it’s even in the top 3 and probably not the top 5. But it appears to be something that maybe CCP should be taking a deeper look at it with better data. > [@Bob\_Mo\_rane](#): > > Players don’t leave because they get ganked. > I was ganked last week. Did I leave? No. Well, sorry, but this is simply nonsense. Not sure if you’re trolling or just can’t be bothered to express a rational thought here because you need to vent some emotional bias. Try again sometime when you’re not projecting a single personal experience onto literally tens of thousands of other players and their situations. And when you’ve lost something bigger than a Venture in lowsec (which wasn’t even a gank, by many standards). And when you’re not simply spouting nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Order\_Enforcer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/new_order_enforcer/32/387867_2.png) [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/New_Order_Enforcer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 12:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/109 "2022-09-27T12:16:08Z")
> So yes players are getting ganked. No, I can’t find anything that would indicate new players are at all likely to be ganked within their first 2 weeks Case closed then ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Mo\_rane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bob_mo_rane/32/333433_2.png) [@Bob\_Mo\_rane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bob_Mo_rane)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/110 "2022-09-27T13:06:50Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Well, sorry, but this is simply nonsense. Not sure if you’re trolling or just can’t be bothered to express a rational thought here because you need to vent some emotional bias. What kind of gobbly-gook psychological-bs is that? I stated a **fact**. There are no biases in facts. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Try again sometime when you’re not projecting a single personal experience onto literally tens of thousands of other players and their situations Unlike you, I don’t pretend to speak for everybody. You don’t speak for me. Whatever you state is based on some unverifiable data, only CCP has that data and their statements _are_ biased towards company benefits. All those threads about ganking are merely _crying and moaning_ when they’re not troll threads. No need to get all scientific about it. Ganking has never been the cause of the demise of a PvP game. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/111 "2022-09-27T13:17:25Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > This was nonsense yesterday and it’s still nonsense today. You’re selectively stitching together old data with incomplete new data to drive a conclusion you formed in advance. > > CCP have stated outright… LOL ! No, the true nonsense comes from some troll who is full of ‘CCP says…’ when it suits him, but who totally ignores CCPs very own data the rest of the time. The _whole point_ of my stats was that even if we allow for wildly high ganking rates we can still definitively say that the majority of week old noobs have not left due to ganking. It really _doesn’t matter_ what the error margin is. The whole point was that even with in-exact data we can show that the number of people ganked is only a small portion of those who leave. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > However even if only say 2% are at risk of ganks, 2% of “a _lot_ of activity” can still be a high absolute number. Sort of reminds me of the verse about removing the beam from one’s own eye before one can remove the mote from someone else’s. Well…at least in a universe where 98% is _somewhat_ larger than 2% ! ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/113 "2022-09-27T13:29:00Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You’ll need to come out with concrete, reliable and verifiable stats Like you do ? You don’t have ANY data… **.at all**. You are the ultimate hypocrite in demanding concrete data off others when you are consistently asked for data yourself yet never have any. And I don’t need some troll telling me what I need. You are irrelevant and mathematicians have yet do create a number small enough to represent the sheer insignificance of your dreadfully over-inflated opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/115 "2022-09-27T21:07:56Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > What I oppose is you stitching together data to push your narrative then claiming it’s fact. I couldn’t care less what you oppose. You and your mere opinions are _irrelevant_ as the data _is_ fact. The new player login data is from CCP themselves. And even if it had fallen appreciably since 2019 my conclusions would _still_ be true. That’s the whole point. The number of people leaving each week simply **cannot** …even if you are wildly liberal with the data…be explained by ganking as the number of people ganked is hugely smaller. FACT. Very simple maths ( but obviously way over your head ) shows that the claim that any significant number of new players are leaving because of ganking is utter nonsense. It is _demonstrable_ nonsense. I appreciate that fools _don’t like_ data that demolishes their obsessive cause…but that is another matter entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 9:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/117 "2022-09-27T21:34:14Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Nope. Yep. ( I can play that silly game too ). ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 8:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/118 "2022-09-28T08:10:50Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > You and your mere opinions are _irrelevant_ Then you should probably stop giving them credence by engaging with them. ---
**Author:** ![Namaros](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/namaros/32/461419_2.png) [@Namaros](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Namaros)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 8:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/119 "2022-10-01T08:17:55Z")
Ganging is activity for toxic nerds who wasted their life online. Mad incels. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 10:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/120 "2022-10-01T10:01:42Z")
Whats wrong with that? Everyone needs a hobby ---
**Author:** ![Jambi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jambi/32/268698_2.png) [@Jambi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jambi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/121 "2022-10-01T21:46:25Z")
lol! grow up! ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 8:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/122 "2022-10-02T08:23:27Z")
Especially funny considering based on his own logic he could be prosecuted for his own name as well “`shower bend over`” if someone is to read as much into it as he’s reading into ganking. 🤭 😏 This forum and the game is available to teens after all. 🤔 > **[Shower With Your Dad Simulator 2015: Do You Still Shower With Your Dad on Steam](https://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/359050/)** > > "Shower With Your Dad Simulator 2015: Do You Still Shower With Your Dad?" is a fast paced shower-simulation where you shower with your 8-bit dad.It's good, clean fun! 👀 ---
**Author:** ![Thotamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/thotamon/32/505477_2.png) [@Thotamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Thotamon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2022, 12:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/123 "2022-10-06T12:37:25Z")
I saw at least 5 ganks just this morning in Uedama/Sivala, and add to that 3 or so that got away. This was during like 3-4 hour period. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/124 "2022-12-06T13:28:45Z")
Amusingly, on another forum where I discuss game design issues, someone brought up this very thread (and a couple others) to “prove” that open-world, non-consensual PvP is a ‘death blow’ to MMOs. To re-iterate what I’ve said before: the data we can get from zKillboard and other published sources is incomplete. We simply can’t pull the information we need to determine who’s new, who’s really been ‘ganked’, who quits and when and after how many losses. CCP _can_ find this data, and it’s curious that they’ve moved from a “ganking doesn’t make people leave” position to “we need grief counselling for new players losing ships” and GM SRP programs. While discussing the issue this reddit thread was also pointed out: > **[r/Eve - Here is how my ganking affected the player count](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/xn49wk/here_is_how_my_ganking_affected_the_player_count/)** > > 96 votes and 121 comments so far on Reddit Which has some correlation with what’s been discussed here. Again, can’t squeeze out data that’s not there, but the numbers are strongly suggestive. ---
**Author:** ![x123xxx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/x123xxx/32/247890_2.png) [@x123xxx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/x123xxx)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/125 "2022-12-06T15:30:45Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Again, can’t squeeze out data that’s not there… The data strongly suggest that it’s **subjective**. * * * +1 for necromancy…💀 ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/126 "2022-12-06T15:43:06Z")
Thanks for posting this… Definitely an interesting thread with some very thought-provoking stats posted in the OP. Obviously that 2015 CCP Rice presentation doesn’t mean squat when compared to the ‘Beyond the Friendship Machine’ presentations done a few years later, and especially now, what with all the in-game changes recently implemented that pertain to that subject. Guess the bottom line is that, despite us not having access to the numbers, those ‘Friendship Machine’ presentations coupled with the recent in-game changes is actually a good indication that there really is an issue, one that CCP now feels compelled to act upon. Course as we all know, CCP is slow on action and implements most changes in small phases. Basically we can expect more iterations on this in future releases… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/127 "2022-12-06T16:01:07Z")
It is more about who started first. There is no sec satus hit if you defend yourself. Only attacker is punished with reduction of sec status. Low sec is still empire space, not completely lawless, its less secure than high sec. You cant expect running around attacking and killing people while having no consequences of your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/128 "2022-12-06T17:45:19Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > While discussing the issue this reddit thread was also pointed out: > > [Reddit - Dive into anything](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/xn49wk/here_is_how_my_ganking_affected_the_player_count/) > > Which has some correlation with what’s been discussed here. Again, can’t squeeze out data that’s not there, but the numbers are strongly suggestive. Not this ■■■■■■■■ again, I’ve pushed back against this specific line of fallacious statistics in the CSM ganking thread and don’t want to repeat myself. The worst kind of necromancy ---
**Author:** ![x123xxx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/x123xxx/32/247890_2.png) [@x123xxx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/x123xxx)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852/129 "2022-12-06T17:47:14Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > and don’t want to repeat myself. Then don’t. Problem solved, **disaster averted!** * * * [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ganking-and-pvp-numbers-in-perspective/371852.md?page=7)