# Going red on HP, don't fear it **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 16, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187 "2019-11-16T19:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/62 "2019-11-17T09:07:21Z")
> [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](#): > > Some things are beyond mortal man. IOW, you have no answer to offer. ---
**Author:** ![Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/abruzzi_oskold/32/279259_2.png) [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Abruzzi_Oskold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/63 "2019-11-17T09:09:17Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > > [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](#): > > > > Some things are beyond mortal man. > > IOW, you have no answer to offer. No, the convincing is the problem. You know the saying about leading a horse to water but not being able to force him to drink thing? ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/64 "2019-11-17T09:09:57Z")
> [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](#): > > No, the convincing is the problem. > > You know the saying about leading a horse to water but not being able to force him to drink thing? Excuses, excuses. Either provide an answer or admit that you have none. I will listen to a convincing argument but no such argument has ever been provided. ---
**Author:** ![Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/abruzzi_oskold/32/279259_2.png) [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Abruzzi_Oskold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/65 "2019-11-17T09:10:38Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > > [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](#): > > > > No, the convincing is the problem. > > > > You know the saying about leading a horse to water but not being able to force him to drink thing? > > Excuses, excuses. Either provide an answer or admit that you have none. I will listen to a convincing argument but no such argument has ever been provided. That’s the “beyond the mortal man” thing… ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/66 "2019-11-17T09:12:39Z")
Does PvE provide a test of skill? No, success is automatic given even a basic level of competence. Does PvE provide an engaging story? No, the “story” is shallow at best and becomes repetitive after only a brief time. And in most cases the in-game actions blatantly contradict the background fiction. Does PvE provide an entertaining spectacle? No, most of the time you’re just watching red icons on the overview floating slowly towards you as their HP bars drop, and once you’ve seen PvE for a few minutes you’ve seen all there is to see. So what is it then? What does PvE provide besides a participation trophy that the lowest-skill players can pretend to be proud of? ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/67 "2019-11-17T09:19:12Z")
Thousands of crabbers out in null would disagree with you, biggest pastime in Delve. Mission running biggest past time in faction warfare and high-sec. Along with shooting rocks of course. All pve activities, that’s many many thousands of players. That disease has spread far and wide throughout New Eden, better dock up if I were you would not want you to catch it. xD ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/68 "2019-11-17T09:21:13Z")
> [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](#): > > Thousands of crabbers out in null would disagree with you, biggest pastime in Delve. Farming PvE to fund your alliance’s supercapital fleet for PvP =/= doing PvE because you enjoy it. And let’s be honest, a lot of those players are bots (because PvE is so stupidly easy that a bot can farm it). ---
**Author:** ![Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/abruzzi_oskold/32/279259_2.png) [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Abruzzi_Oskold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/69 "2019-11-17T09:21:56Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Does PvE provide a test of skill? No, success is automatic given even a basic level of competence. > > Does PvE provide an engaging story? No, the “story” is shallow at best and becomes repetitive after only a brief time. And in most cases the in-game actions blatantly contradict the background fiction. > > Does PvE provide an entertaining spectacle? No, most of the time you’re just watching red icons on the overview floating slowly towards you as their HP bars drop, and once you’ve seen PvE for a few minutes you’ve seen all there is to see. > > So what is it then? What does PvE provide besides a participation trophy that the lowest-skill players can pretend to be proud of? I think some of your above assumptions and observations are wrong. I also think its a waste of time to try and explain to you why, since you are tone death to why people like to PvE. You think since you hate it others can’t rationally like it. That’s a big road block for your eventual enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/72 "2019-11-17T09:25:14Z")
> [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](#): > > You think since you hate it others can’t rationally like it. No, I think that because I’ve gone through all of the reasons why a person can rationally like something and (combat) PvE has failed to have any of those things. The only two reasons I can come up with: 1. It gives participation trophies and lets people pretend to be successful. and 1. It fills the same compulsive gambling need as slot machines in a casino, something lots of other terrible games are happy to exploit for profit. Neither of these are good reasons. And in both cases the people “enjoying” it deserve only pity. ---
**Author:** ![Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/abruzzi_oskold/32/279259_2.png) [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Abruzzi_Oskold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/73 "2019-11-17T09:26:25Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > No, I think that because **I’ve gone through all** of the reasons why a person can rationally like something… That’s a bold and greatly mistaken assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/74 "2019-11-17T09:27:06Z")
> [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](#): > > That’s a bold and greatly mistaken assumption. Then how about, instead of whining and crying about how you don’t like my lack of respect for PvE, you post the reasons that I’ve overlooked. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/75 "2019-11-17T09:27:50Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > At least the other side has a chance of winning that fight, even if they fail to take advantage of it. NPCs will never do anything unpredictable or threaten to win. The myriad of destroyed mission and ratting ships by NPC in missions, anomalies, DED complexes tell a different story. But that doesn’t count as a win, right? Because you can just come back and shoot them up anyway … just like in PVP engagements. So PVP and PVE are just the same, in your ignorant world view. 🙂 > [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > It fills the same compulsive gambling need as slot machines in a casino, something lots of other terrible games are happy to exploit for profit. And PVP with the, according to you unpredictable possibilities of human ingenuity, does not equate to gambling styles like Poker? Your way of thinking really is intriguing. Do you need a new shovel yet? ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/76 "2019-11-17T09:29:42Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > The myriad of destroyed mission and ratting ships by NPC in missions, anomalies, DED complexes tell a different story. It is incomprehensible to me that anyone who isn’t a clueless newbie could possibly lose a ship in PvE. You have detailed how-to guides that tell you exactly what you’re going to face and how to beat it, tools to easily determine if you ship is capable of surviving, and usually plenty of opportunity to warp out before you get anywhere near death. Either clueless newbies are RMTing ships they aren’t skilled enough to fly or lots of people are playing while drunk. For point of comparison, the last time I even got a PvE ship damaged to the point of having to warp out was when I was having a conversation in another window and forgot to turn on my tank. And I still didn’t even come close to losing it. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/77 "2019-11-17T09:33:08Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > And PVP with the, according to you unpredictable possibilities of human ingenuity, does not equate to gambling styles like Poker? Your way of thinking really is intriguing. Do you need a new shovel yet? Apparently you don’t understand the difference between gambling and games of skill. PvP is a match of skill between human opponents where the deciding factor is superior play, not RNG. Gambling is just mindless RNG, at no point is any meaningful skill involved. PvE in EVE is the equivalent of those mindless phone games that try to get gambling addicts to throw away money on loot boxes/pay to win microtransactions/etc. Sure, it’s shallow as hell but you have lots of pretty spectacle every time you “win” and that drives the addict to keep playing. ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/78 "2019-11-17T09:33:23Z")
Can I ask a question do you mine rocks at all? I’m curious your not slating miners, or is it just mission runners and pve’ers in general? ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/79 "2019-11-17T09:34:23Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Apparently you don’t understand the difference between gambling and games of skill. Games of skill? Oh, of course PVP is a game of skill. Just like PVE. You need the right tools and knowledge to overcome a certain obstacle or challenge. So they are the same and can both be fun. Good that we have clarified that again. 🙂 > [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Gambling is just mindless RNG, at no point is any meaningful skill involved. Poker is gambling. Do you really say it is mindless RNG? ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/80 "2019-11-17T09:39:14Z")
> [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](#): > > Can I ask a question do you mine rocks at all? I’m curious your not slating miners, or is it just mission runners and pve’ers in general? I’m talking about combat PvE. Mining itself is boring but is only a small part of a complex and demanding industrial game where you are competing with other players and success is not automatic. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Games of skill? Oh, of course PVP is a game of skill. Just like PVE. You need the right tools and knowledge to overcome a certain obstacle or challenge. So they are the same and can both be fun. Good that we have clarified that again. Nonsense. PvE is not a game of skill because the level of skill required is trivial. Even basic competence is enough to win 100% of the time, and at no point does the challenge escalate. Calling it a game of skill is like saying that walking across the room is a game of skill because when you were a small child you had to learn how to walk. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Poker is gambling. Do you really say it is mindless RNG? Poker is gambling but it falls into a gray area because you’re competing against the other players, not against the RNG. The sort of gambling I’m talking about is the addicts mindlessly flushing all of their money down the slot machine toilet because they can’t walk away. There is nothing enjoyable about what they are doing, only the compulsive behavior of someone who deserves pity for their unfortunate circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/81 "2019-11-17T09:54:17Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > I’m talking about combat PvE. Mining itself is boring but is only a small part of a complex and demanding industrial game where you are competing with other players and success is not automatic. Part of my mission running is also a part of complex process, I don’t mine i use my funds to place buy orders for what i need i also have scrapmetal processing at lvl 5, i also like doing missions for me its a win win. From time to time i do use an orca with tech 2 drones to mine the asteroids, usually pyroxeres in the mission plexes but after an hour i get bored and go back to shooting stuff. When drunk i’m generally sitting outside a null station in a cloaky loki dropping them bodies. Does that make my playstyle obsolete, no it does not. It’s just one of thousands of different playstyles you find in the New Eden sandbox. No one playstyle is the correct one, and the fact that you slate pve mission runners quite frankly is rather arrogant and small minded. ---
**Author:** ![Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/abruzzi_oskold/32/279259_2.png) [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Abruzzi_Oskold)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/82 "2019-11-17T09:56:46Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > > [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](#): > > > > That’s a bold and greatly mistaken assumption. > > Then how about, instead of whining and crying about how you don’t like my lack of respect for PvE, you post the reasons that I’ve overlooked. I don’t think the issue is any lack of respect by you. Its your inability to accept that others can like something you hate. You seem to think they need to prove to you why they can like something when really your opinion of that is fairly inconsequential beyond entertainment value. Just trying to shine some light on your mistaken opinion that anybody needs to justify to you why they like something. Perhaps more candle power is needed. Where is an O type star when you need it. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 9:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187/83 "2019-11-17T09:57:01Z")
No one play style is correct, but there are certainly wrong ones. And missions are \*\*\*\* design that needs to be removed from the game entirely. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/going-red-on-hp-dont-fear-it/201187.md?page=5)