# Golden ammo **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 2, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551 "2023-08-02T16:45:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/1 "2023-08-02T16:45:55Z")
I’ve always said I stay away from pay-to-win games. I know, there are various definitions of pay-to-win (P2W) and many discussions about which definition is the right one, but that’s not what I want to talk about. So let me clarify what I mean with P2W so even if you have another definition, we at least have a common understanding. ## Definition of P2W My definition of P2W is not: - a subscription, _after all, a game with running server and developer costs needs to be paid for_ - a catch-up mechanic, _like selling SP_ - an exchange of your value for the time of another player, _like PLEX, which allows one player to trade their time for another player’s money_ While we can probably have long discussions of any of those points, I can see the advantages for the game and even though I may not be happy with some of them, at least I am fine with those features being in my games. My definition of P2W is fairly simple: - competitive advantages that you can only buy from the developer In short, P2W is a game mechanic that encourages players to pay extra to get an advantage. And for players to keep paying more and more each time they want to win, or at the very least pay to not lose against their paying competitors. Pay-to-win means a game is no longer about the game itself, a game of skill, but is a competition of ‘who has the bigger wallet’, where the only winners are the people earning the money. ## Meaning of P2W _“But what if I have a different definition? And why does this definition matter?”_ you may ask. Because to me, if a game is P2W, it means **I will not play that game.** ## Examples of P2W Like golden ammo. A damage boost for money. Or perhaps a speed boost. _Why not both?_ I present: the [**Wisdom of Gheinok Booster**](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/new-foundation-day-pack) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/7/f/2/7f230f712acbb6a8ab89844db2c6836da70fc574.png) CCP, you seriously disappoint me. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/2 "2023-08-02T16:53:51Z")
🙄 Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/3 "2023-08-02T16:55:29Z")
Are you rolling your eyes at at CCP’s latest bad idea of introducing P2W to the game, or are you rolling your eyes at my post? Behind those sunglasses it’s hard to tell. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/4 "2023-08-02T17:25:38Z")
Well, back during the infamous ‘Summer Of Rage’ era, CCP plainly said they would never sell ‘Gold Ammo’. Guess they’re keeping true to that by selling boosters. Course they also said, among other things, they would never do ‘Daily Tasks’ or sell SP’s. In the amount of time that I’ve been here, I’ve come to not put any faith in whatever CCP says they’ll do. In fact most times they usually do the opposite of what they say. As for the topic of this thread, I really don’t see much difference between including it in a game pack verses the Log-in boosters they give out for free. What I definitely detest is the fact that they constantly keep making more items ‘Soulbound’, thus bypassing the Player-run Market. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Baird](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wesley_baird/32/455827_2.png) [@Wesley\_Baird](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wesley_Baird)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/5 "2023-08-02T17:33:48Z")
Wow, CCP this is a new low…some decent FW changes yesterday, then follow it up with a complete self own. ---
**Author:** ![Gabriel\_Luis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gabriel_luis/32/380769_2.png) [@Gabriel\_Luis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gabriel_Luis)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/6 "2023-08-02T17:35:41Z")
[Greed is Good?](http://jestertrek.com/eve/Vol%201%20-%20Greed%20is%20good.pdf). 12 years. And you still haven’t learned. No, greed is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Mordan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/julius_mordan/32/392286_2.png) [@Julius\_Mordan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Julius_Mordan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/7 "2023-08-02T17:47:29Z")
CCP being dumb again All we want is CCP to stop being dumb how hard can this be?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/8 "2023-08-02T17:48:49Z")
The point is that CCP doesn’t really care about your specific definition. They just saw that they can basically do whatever they want so far and people buy it with basically zero resistance. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > My definition of P2W is fairly simple: > > - combat advantages that you can only buy from the developer So would the new booster have been fine if it was simply possible to be resold on the player market? I would have actually expected them to do that, since it’s apparently easy to “player-market-wash” pay2win mechanics this way and even get applause and defense from the community while it makes probably zero difference in their books. In fact I think it is actually this strange tolerance that people like you seem to have for this practice and the defense CCP got from people like you over the years that led us to this point, where they confidently add gold ammo to the shop without even thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/9 "2023-08-02T18:05:56Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > So would the new booster have been fine if it was simply possible to be resold on the player market? Yes. Not ‘fine’, but acceptable. I would have disliked the fact that the booster, like many other recently introduced boosters, does not follow the idea of EVE’s economy where most items, including boosters, are meant to be player-made. But yes, if it could have been sold it would be no different than other tradable items CCP sells in their store, and equivalent to PLEX with regards to the ability of one player to trade their money for another player’s time. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > In fact I think it is actually this strange tolerance that people like you seem to have for this practice and the defense CCP got from people like you over the years that led us to this point, where they confidently add gold ammo to the shop without even thinking about it. I have a tolerance for PLEX as I see the benefits of it. In MMOs there always are players who have different values of their time and of their money. As result, you get illegal practices like RMT and as result botting and hacked accounts to fund the RMT. It’s inevitable and present in every MMO I’ve played. PLEX gives players with more time than money and players with more money than time the opportunity to trade time for money with a _positive_ effect on the game, as money goes to the developers, rather than to the people undermining the game with bots. While this does not entirely stop RMT (and the resulting malpractices), it makes the effects of RMT much, much smaller. So yes, I tolerate PLEX and the ability for players to trade their wealth legally to other player’s ingame time. Not because I _like_ it, but because I see how it’s better than the alternative. And other tradable items sold in the NES, like tradable skins, extractors or even boosters would be no different than PLEX in this context: a way for players with money to trade that money for another player’s time. The line I draw is when the game sells combat boosts only obtainable with money. When a game pushes people to pay real money in order to compete with other players. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > The point is that CCP doesn’t really care about your specific definition. They just saw that they can basically do whatever they want so far and people buy it with basically zero resistance. They may not care. I do care, this is my line, and I’m out. And as I [told Io](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-golden-ammo/414549/7), no I’m not giving away my stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Lanx\_Original](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lanx_original/32/380776_2.png) [@Lanx\_Original](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lanx_Original)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/10 "2023-08-02T18:19:40Z")
I too greatly dislike the introduction of this booster, for several more reasons as well. The line that’s crossed is selling a stackable advantage for real money that is _only_ (reasonably) available by paying real money. There is a lot more to be criticised here about the manner in which this advantage is being sold, but those are of lesser importance. There’s also the predatory marketing of putting this thing in a bundle with a bunch of stuff that is likely of little interest to the kind of person who’s after the booster. I would very much appreciate if CCP could stop ever even entertaining the idea of selling such items in the future. It is hard enough to convince new people to try the overwhelmingly intricate spaceship game without having them catch even the faintest whiff of P2W advantages available exclusively through seasonal cash shop pack purchases. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/11 "2023-08-02T18:24:07Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > In MMOs there always are players who have different values of their time and of their money. As result, you get illegal practices like RMT and as result botting and hacked accounts to fund the RMT. It’s inevitable and present in every MMO I’ve played. It’s a plague and it devalues the game achievements. Letting credit card warriors bypass in-game effort is bad for the game. I don’t care if you value your time more than your money, I’m sure you can find something else to buy with your money that doesn’t take a big crap over other players in-game achievements. PLEX didn’t fix anything for the players though, they just sold it to us this way. It just redirected some of the revenue stream from the botters to CCP, which is probably good for CCP. It also legitimized pay2win and was the first seed to the developments that led eventually to this very moment. And it’s just phenomenal that you are once again defending their practices, even though you now know where it led. Even this very post, you spent like 95% of the text defending their previous monetization efforts and just at the end you complained that the latest thing is bad. Do you actually think, that the marketing people who come up with this things and probably don’t play eve are aware of your imaginary line in the sand? Do you actually think they even noticed that the for them completely unimportant property of trade-ability on the market is a sacred thing? All they know is that they did basically the same thing for the last decade and not only was it fine, but you defended it as not being pay2win. ---
**Author:** ![FSync](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fsync/32/380780_2.png) [@FSync](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/FSync)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/12 "2023-08-02T18:44:32Z")
Very well put, although I think even making the booster tradable for players is a bad thing to do too. Don’t monetize ingame mechanics, it’s that simple, it’s what keeps the sanctity of the game going, the moment you allow dollars to influence game mechanics like that I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![Skopia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/skopia/32/380783_2.png) [@Skopia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Skopia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/13 "2023-08-02T19:12:05Z")
I tolerate sales of extractors, plex, mct since it´s possible to benefit from it even though it´s artificial economy. Can´t say I like it though. This however, is crossing the line for the reasons mentioned above. If this is the direction you want to take, count me and my army of alt-accounts out once the omega-time expires. ---
**Author:** ![Arakkis\_Melanogaster](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arakkis_melanogaster/32/378473_2.png) [@Arakkis\_Melanogaster](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arakkis_Melanogaster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/14 "2023-08-02T16:38:33Z")
[The new Foundation Day Pack](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/new-foundation-day-pack) contains the first cash store combat booster ( +4% Energy Turret Damage, +7% Armor Repair, and +3% Max Velocity). This is an absolutely unacceptable line to cross. CCP marketing has consistently been slowly pushing the line of terrible decisions and we all knew it was only a matter of time until this happened. Moving forward with this decision will fundamentally change the game and it’s playerbase. This is a deal breaker for many of us longtime players, including those like me that use the cash shop. If this is not immediately removed, I will be suspending my accounts. DO NOT MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS GAME-ALTERING DECISION ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/15 "2023-08-02T16:54:18Z")
Compare it to world of tanks/warships. CC’s and tryhards rage about yet another BS premium and some CC even go on strike about it but the casuals go “lol it’s OP af, take my money”. There are far more casuals than tryhards (this is how Goons as a concept came to be) so it works out. Doesn’t mean I like it but it _does_ mean it’s not unexpected, they’ll try it and see if it sells and if it does they’ll keep doing it and add more. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/16 "2023-08-02T17:08:02Z")
Pay-to-win is the line I’ve drawn in the sand, and they crossed it with this. I’m out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Flatulent\_aberration](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flatulent_aberration/32/380074_2.png) [@Flatulent\_aberration](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flatulent_aberration)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/17 "2023-08-02T17:17:44Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > I’m out of here. Don’t forget to donate to PLEX-for-good on your way out. Is that still a thing?? Saw ref to it someplace. Anyway. No point giving anything to noobs like me. I’d just spend it on injectors, and I dare say boosters, to catch up! ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/18 "2023-08-02T17:25:59Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > I’m out of here. Film the flush as you leave the game or it didn’t happen. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/19 "2023-08-02T17:34:00Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > I’m out of here. Obligatory „stuff“ request, ol‘ timer. Will be quieter out here without ya. Take it easy, hope to see you again. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551/20 "2023-08-02T17:34:53Z")
Ha, I could have expected that one. But no, I’m not one to biomass or throw/give away my stuff. Might check again in a year to see how it’s going, or perhaps later. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/golden-ammo/414551.md?page=2)