# Great job CCP! More Triglavian-like content needed **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 23, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980 "2019-09-23T15:16:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Galaxy\_Pig](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galaxy_pig/32/374625_2.png) [@Galaxy\_Pig](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galaxy_Pig)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/63 "2019-09-29T02:32:56Z")
If you started playing in 2007, the numbers really don’t look so bad… ---
**Author:** ![Valiran\_Teleros](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valiran_teleros/32/504787_2.png) [@Valiran\_Teleros](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valiran_Teleros)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/64 "2019-09-29T04:16:05Z")
Is there anyone on these forums who remembers what the numbers were like back in 2003-2004? if space is empty _now_ then what the hell was it like back then? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 7:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/65 "2019-09-29T07:21:01Z")
> [@erg\_cz](#): > > Risk averse… As if that’s a bad thing. 🙄 More economic ignorance on stilts. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 7:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/66 "2019-09-29T07:29:04Z")
> [@celeru](#): > > Wow, you read a lot into that. I guess you’re some type of clairvoyant? 🔮 It is not uncommon for people who have been ganked to write some pretty bad stuff about those players. Thing is, in many cases, those who were ganked were risk seeking. And _ **that** _ is really ironic in that risk aversion is often used as a slur. So you can see the incoherence on those who vilify CODE. and other gankers, yet at the same time will hurl the term “risk averse” like it is some sort of insult. So not only do they resort to the kind of horrible rhetoric @Solstice_Projekt is calling out, they also fail to extol the virtues of those dumb enough…errr…brave enough that do get ganked. ---
**Author:** ![Ronnie\_Rose](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ronnie_rose/32/446230_2.png) [@Ronnie\_Rose](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ronnie_Rose)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 9:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/67 "2019-09-29T09:58:06Z")
and dying for 15 years ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/68 "2019-09-29T12:45:57Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I’m not the one that has trouble understanding this simple fact. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/69 "2019-09-29T13:33:44Z")
> [@Peter\_Raptor](#): > > Have a look at the numbers from 2011 and compare to today Now take a look at the numbers over the same period for the behemoth in the room, World of Warcraft. Best guesses indicate an 80% drop in numbers. 2011 10.2 million subs 2015 5 million subs 2018 1.7 million subs The 1.7M subs was pulled, in late 2018, from the leaky battlenet api. > **[Report Claims to Reveal How Many Subscribers World of Warcraft Really Has](https://www.gadgets360.com/games/news/world-of-warcraft-wow-subscription-numbers-battle-of-azeroth-1932930)** > > Though Blizzard stopped providing subscriber numbers for World of Warcraft back in 2015, a new report has stated that it currently stands at 1.7 million. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/70 "2019-09-29T13:39:43Z")
> [@Miulan\_Ng](#): > > waiting for my husband to get dressed for dinner out. I don’t buy it. Everybody knows it is the wife we need to be waiting for to get dressed for an outing. ---
**Author:** ![LlamaDrama](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/llamadrama/32/153423_2.png) [@LlamaDrama](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/LlamaDrama)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/71 "2019-09-29T13:42:08Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > > [@LlamaDrama](#): > > > > All miner and mission runners are somehow doing wrong and should be ganked. > > Now you get it. > > > [@LlamaDrama](#): > > > > They claim some moral high ground by making up words such as “bot aspirant”. > > We indeed have the moral high ground, but not because we call them bot-aspirants, because we are better people and make highsec a better place. > > > [@LlamaDrama](#): > > > > But the real truth is they are just griefers. Every game that allows open ganking has this sort of player, who only wants to gank easy targets and it’s almost all they do. > > Hey we are not griefers, we just help those miners become better players. Bot-apirancy has a cure and it comes I’m the form of Void S. > > > [@LlamaDrama](#): > > > > The people they target arn’t doing anything wrong. > > They are sick and misguided. It’s not their fault, it is the fault of other carebears like you who tell them this is OK. That’s why they die. Their blood is on your hands. > > > [@LlamaDrama](#): > > > > But i get the feeling some players do quit because of their pointless slaughter of players who thought they were safe enough because it is high security space. > > CCP looked into this and found no correlation between ganking and players quiting the game. This myth has long been debunked. > > If anything we help those people become better miners and even better humans. > > Praise James Strange how the Ultima Online devs found exactly the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/72 "2019-09-29T14:52:32Z")
Not to forget that posting histories are a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/73 "2019-09-29T14:56:48Z")
You should have a look at his posting history. He’s a nice person in general, but as soon as anything related comes up it’s like there’s a switch flipping over turning him into an irrational, mindless hate machine. You don’t need to take my word for it. You’re free to study his posting history. Hell, there are plenty of those people, who have it all over their posting history. They flood and derail every thread that’s about safety, criminal gameplay in highsec and everything related to suicide ganking in general. It’s always the same utter nonsense and they never stop spreading their HateSpeech. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/74 "2019-09-29T17:00:34Z")
> [@LlamaDrama](#): > > Strange how the Ultima Online devs found exactly the opposite. Why is that strange? It is a different game. Also didn’t they make a perfectly safe zone and then the game died? ---
**Author:** ![Valiran\_Teleros](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valiran_teleros/32/504787_2.png) [@Valiran\_Teleros](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valiran_Teleros)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/75 "2019-09-29T21:46:12Z")
So, are less people playing MMOs in general, or are they just moving on to new ones over the years? Though judging by all the bitching I’ve heard from the WoW community they’ve been unhappy with Blizzard’s path for a long, long time, so dissatisfaction is probably a major factor, too. > [@LlamaDrama](#): > > Strange how the Ultima Online devs found exactly the opposite. They discovered a lot of things, like how they could never actually implement a “virtual ecology” system because the players kept killing everything, which resulted in the biosphere dying off. Hell, wasn’t EvE _made_ by Ultima Online veterans who wanted a game like old-school UO? > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Why is that strange? It is a different game. Also didn’t they make a perfectly safe zone and then the game died? I keep hearing this, but does anyone have a citation for it? I’ve been searching google but so far no luck, when did the change happen? If I can narrow the search parameters I’ll probably be able to find some official news about it. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/76 "2019-09-29T22:20:33Z")
> [@Valiran\_Teleros](#): > > I keep hearing this, but does anyone have a citation for it? I’ve been searching google but so far no luck, when did the change happen? If I can narrow the search parameters I’ll probably be able to find some official news about it. The addition is usually refereed to as Trammel. There are some EVE devs (or former devs) on record saying that the reason they created this very game was because they missed the pre-trammel UO which was a special kind of game that got basically killed by this expansion. Sadly those devs seem to be gone and CCP is shifting more and more into the same direction. It’s also funny that the arguments you will find from pro-trammel carebears are the very same they spew here. Stuff like “times have changed!”, “the market demands carebear games with training wheels”, “gamer today (i think they always refer to themselves) handle a real challenge” ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/77 "2019-09-29T22:22:28Z")
> [@Valiran\_Teleros](#): > > So, are less people playing MMOs in general, or are they just moving on to new ones over the years? Though judging by all the bitching I’ve heard from the WoW community they’ve been unhappy with Blizzard’s path for a long, long time, so dissatisfaction is probably a major factor, too. The general impression is that, whilst MMO developers are still pumping them out, the MMO genre is in decline. Richard Bartle, the guy who came up with the Bartle classification scale for MMO player types, has been saying so since 2013. > **[The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf](https://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf)** > > 114.47 KB To be fair to CCP, Eve isn’t doing that badly numbers wise when compared to others, especially if you consider the percentage of players currently playing compared to the peak numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Valiran\_Teleros](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valiran_teleros/32/504787_2.png) [@Valiran\_Teleros](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valiran_Teleros)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/78 "2019-09-29T23:14:32Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > The addition is usually refereed to as Trammel. There are some EVE devs (or former devs) on record saying that the reason they created this very game was because they missed the pre-trammel UO which was a special kind of game that got basically killed by this expansion. Thank you, I’ll go look that up now. > [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > Sadly those devs seem to be gone and CCP is shifting more and more into the same direction. > > It’s also funny that the arguments you will find from pro-trammel carebears are the very same they spew here. Stuff like “times have changed!”, “the market demands carebear games with training wheels”, “gamer today (i think they always refer to themselves) handle a real challenge” The great PvP debate rages eternal, and we are unlikely to find a workable solution in our lifetimes. I think there need to be _some_ restrictions on PvP or else the game will die out, but how those restrictions should be calibrated is beyond my ken. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > The general impression is that, whilst MMO developers are still pumping them out, the MMO genre is in decline. Richard Bartle, the guy who came up with the Bartle classification scale for MMO player types, has been saying so since 2013. > > [mud.co.uk](https://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf) > > ### [The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf](https://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf) > > 114.47 KB > > To be fair to CCP, Eve isn’t doing that badly numbers wise when compared to others, especially if you consider the percentage of players currently playing compared to the peak numbers. Interesting article. I’m going to have to mull over what I’ve read. I may be semi-ignorant to the harsh realities facing MMOs, but I’m not going to let it stay that way if I can help it. ---
**Author:** ![Agondray](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/agondray/32/414989_2.png) [@Agondray](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Agondray)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/79 "2019-09-30T01:40:59Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > The general impression is that, whilst MMO developers are still pumping them out, the MMO genre is in decline. they keep going to games you can log in and kill a bunch of people like Call of Duty and such. i have a coworker who brags about how he will spend 12+ hours a day playing Rainbow siege where he will just rush in around the map and kill 20-30+ using only 2 characters sets ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/80 "2019-09-30T05:44:21Z")
> [@Valiran\_Teleros](#): > > The great PvP debate rages eternal, and we are unlikely to find a workable solution in our lifetimes. I think there need to be _some_ restrictions on PvP or else the game will die out, but how those restrictions should be calibrated is beyond my ken. There is an easy solutions and it is called “different games”. Not every game has to be enjoyable by every player. In fact this isn’t even possible. EVE was a PvP sandbox at it’s core since the beginning. They tried to recreate the feeling of a pre-trammel ruthless environment where you are nowhere save and people always innovate to screw eachother over. And they succeeded I would say. If you want that very experience there is simply no other MMO out there that offers it and that was the secret why EVE was going so strong for 15+ years. If you are not interested in that on the other hand there are litterally hundreds of games to chose from. Not every game has to offer the same experience or cater to the same players. Things like suicide ganking are very well balanced and there are easy ways to avoid it. Wardecs could really get a complete overhaul because they where just crippled in the last update and are no longer accessible for most people and just intended to be a shitty and boring citadel grind fest. But what do I ■■■■■■■ know. If CCP makes EVE more save (maybe they already did) then the pre-trammel feeling will eventually die and it will be just another boring MMO like all the other that came and went extinct withing the lifetime of EVE itself. They have a niche here that was completely forgotten by other companies and is still not taken seriously and I feel that not even CCP takes it seriously anymore and forget why EVE survived so long compared to other games. So far in the lifetime of this game, no single change for more safety has led to more players. The carebears always advocate for this changes with the promise of millions of players suddenly being attracted to EVE. This has never worked. In fact quite the opposite happened and every nerf was followed with a decline in players. ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 6:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/81 "2019-09-30T06:07:30Z")
I don’t think Code have it in for Eve players in general, I think over the years Code are actually showing their contempt for CCP’s innaction to fix many broken mechanics. Either way they are easy to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![Valiran\_Teleros](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valiran_teleros/32/504787_2.png) [@Valiran\_Teleros](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valiran_Teleros)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2019, 6:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980/82 "2019-09-30T06:49:06Z")
> [@Karak\_Terrel](#): > > There is an easy solutions and it is called “different games”. Not every game has to be enjoyable by every player. In fact this isn’t even possible. EVE was a PvP sandbox at it’s core since the beginning. They tried to recreate the feeling of a pre-trammel ruthless environment where you are nowhere save and people always innovate to screw eachother over. And they succeeded I would say. > > If you want that very experience there is simply no other MMO out there that offers it and that was the secret why EVE was going so strong for 15+ years. If you are not interested in that on the other hand there are litterally hundreds of games to chose from. > > Not every game has to offer the same experience or cater to the same players. Things like suicide ganking are very well balanced and there are easy ways to avoid it. Wardecs could really get a complete overhaul because they where just crippled in the last update and are no longer accessible for most people and just intended to be a shitty and boring citadel grind fest. > > But what do I ■■■■■■■ know. If CCP makes EVE more save (maybe they already did) then the pre-trammel feeling will eventually die and it will be just another boring MMO like all the other that came and went extinct withing the lifetime of EVE itself. They have a niche here that was completely forgotten by other companies and is still not taken seriously and I feel that not even CCP takes it seriously anymore and forget why EVE survived so long compared to other games. > > So far in the lifetime of this game, no single change for more safety has led to more players. The carebears always advocate for this changes with the promise of millions of players suddenly being attracted to EVE. This has never worked. In fact quite the opposite happened and every nerf was followed with a decline in players. Maybe you’re right, I couldn’t say one way or the other without talking out my ass. I fully believe that EvE needs to be dangerous, but I also think that making it _too_ dangerous would be a bad thing. Where that line is, I don’t know, and - meaning no offense to you, Karak - I don’t know if you’re right or if you’re wrong. I’ve spoken to people in E-Uni and elsewhere who argued that the war system is good in its current state and the previous system drove too many people away from the game, and their arguments seemed convincing to me, but I’m also willing to acknowledge that they could be wrong, too. In the end, I’m a new player who just doesn’t know enough about the game to make a good decision one way or the other. All I can promise is that I’m willing to be convinced; I’ll learn as much as I can, admit my own ignorance about topics I don’t understand, and always debate in good faith. I might not agree with you on everything but I get the feeling that you want what’s best for the game just as much as I do, so I’ll read what you and others have to say so I can be as informed as possible when deciding what changes I should support. On a somewhat related note, what exactly is your definition of “carebear”? The term is thrown around so goddamn much that I can never tell what someone means by it aside from just not liking whoever they’re calling a “carebear”. The term appears to be applied so broadly that I’m starting to think that’s _all_ it means even though everyone who uses it would argue otherwise. I’m confounded by it. > [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](#): > > I don’t think Code have it in for Eve players in general, I think over the years Code are actually showing their contempt for CCP’s innaction to fix many broken mechanics. Either way they are easy to avoid. It probably depends on the member of CODE. in question; I just view them as a part of the game that happens to be somewhat annoying at times. As far as personal experience goes, I’ve never run afoul of them in-game. Oh, sure, I’ve seen them in system with me on several occasions, but the only real interaction I’ve had with their members have been on these forums. …well, that and the time I accidentally got one of them arguing with Diana Kim on the in-game IGS channel. I still don’t know if I should feel amused or embarrassed about that. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/great-job-ccp-more-triglavian-like-content-needed/191980.md?page=5)