# Grumble Grumble, P2W, Capital Skill Books, Grumble Grumble **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 18, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501 "2020-10-18T21:51:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/87 "2020-10-20T00:59:04Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Are you buying it? No? Cool, stop getting offended for other people because of the potential that someone else buys a bad deal. The rest of your comment is you just continuing to get offended for other people. Are you going to stick with this “don’t like it don’t buy it” nonsense when CCP introduces premium ammo? ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/88 "2020-10-20T01:00:54Z")
We already have a cash shop damage booster. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/89 "2020-10-20T01:06:40Z")
How do you stay so calm? 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/90 "2020-10-20T01:07:43Z")
> [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > Added to this, CCP has been more secretive of late. Yeah, CCP Hilmar said a few years back that he wanted to inject the mystery back into Eve. I have argued that this is a fools errand thanks to things like twitch, youtube, blogs, and wikis, and that it can have negative consequences, but they seem to persist. I can’t say that it’s a total failure because I have heard players express approval, but I don’t think the good outweighs the bad. New content feels unpolished because of a lack of player testing and feedback, and faith in CCP isn’t exactly at a high point right now (I think it is getting better though). So players want to know that CCP is on the right track. > [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > it is desparate for my constant attention. I can sympathize. I honestly don’t think Eve is bad about this at all, but that’s because I play (used to play) warframe. 90% of the game was time limited. Prime weapons and frames constantly being rotated in and out of the vault, daily log ins, daily/weekly challenges, daily sorties, time limited events, time limited void fissures, invasions limited by other player activity, and so on and so on. My daily checklist got so long that eventually realized that I was playing more than I actually wanted to. It had turned into a chore. So, I went on break, and still haven’t gone back. Meh, I might start back up again at some point, but only if I can find a way to enjoy it without going all no-lifer with it. > [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > I used to feel that CCP would do right by me whether I was here or not. Not any more. Yeah, Forsaken Fortress was probably a mistake. Assets are a hook that help bring older players back, and that combined with Pochven has players worried that they might get shafted while on break. That being said, I seriously doubt that CCP will make NPC structures destructible or completely inaccessible any time soon. Thus, you should, at the very least, move your stuff to an NPC station or manually trigger asset safety before going on break. And if you’re that worried about it, you can sell all your crap and invest in plex. Anyway, I hope I haven’t played a pivotal role in convincing you to quit. Misguided or not, I still have hope for Eve. It certainly has problems, but it’s still my favorite game. And it would make me sad if I inadvertently sabotaged veteran retention with threads like this. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/91 "2020-10-20T01:11:53Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > How do you stay so calm? 🤨 The Buddha. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/92 "2020-10-20T01:12:36Z")
> [@Shipwreck\_Jones](#): > > New content feels unpolished That could be considered an understatement. More and more, the players seem to be the beta testers. More and more bugs. This latest patch is fun to watch. (kinda) ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/93 "2020-10-20T01:12:50Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > keep all my wealth in my PLEX wallet Probably the safest bet. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/94 "2020-10-20T01:13:43Z")
But I REALLY don’t want to sell off my ship collection. ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/95 "2020-10-20T01:18:28Z")
> [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > The game is P2W from the very beginning. I also disagree. Things like plex and selling SP directly to players are P2W elements, but player skill is still the biggest determining factor in outcomes. And those that spend a bunch of money on bling and injectors tend to wind up as nothing more than loot pinatas. Thus, I believe a game can have P2W monetization methods without becoming P2W game (i.e. a game in which the biggest determining factor in outcomes is how much money you spend). But, that’s just my opinion on what P2W means. ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/96 "2020-10-20T01:59:33Z")
I sometimes see responses that make me realize I could have rephrased my own opinions better. But I feel like I did a pretty good job expressing my position here. That leads me to believe that you are either intentionally creating straw man arguments, or need to work on your reading comprehension skills. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/97 "2020-10-20T02:09:50Z")
> [@Shipwreck\_Jones](#): > > I seriously doubt that CCP will make NPC structures destructible or completely inaccessible any time soon. That would make so much bad publicity for ccp, and make them lose any prospect of continuing into a third decade. The idiotic stunt they pulled with the “abandoned” state (my view on it) would be a footnote compared to that. Of course, we don’t “own” a thing in their game, and in theory they could. But would any new player be willing to try a game where nothing they work for is safe from random deletion, especially after the terrible press ccp would get ? The game can be tough, but not idiotic. We’re not simpletons trying to achieve something in a difficult setting, knowing and accepting that everything can be taken away on a whim by a developer, as opposed to running risks when undocking. Not via subscription and not via any other payment model. Simply unacceptable, let’s be real. There is such a thing as being loyal to your customers. CCP made a bad move this year with the loot pinatas, also because they forgot that the test server was being used for intel before the thing went live… It made them less reliable and believable as sellers, and the reasons to do it were weak if not unfounded. The worries of players are real. Eve players are often here for the long term. The game becomes a hobby. We care about our hobby, and while that may be stifling for some game development aspects, it was in its DNA starting at the conceptual phase. And that is why threads like these are good, to let anyone know we do care and keep an eye on what they’re doing. I wonder if the CSM has any contacts with the marketing department. I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Succulent\_Succubi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/succulent_succubi/32/242516_2.png) [@Succulent\_Succubi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Succulent_Succubi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/98 "2020-10-20T02:19:06Z")
> [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > Skillpoints every day, campaigns that give prizes that you have to be on top of the game to catch before you miss out. More and more it’s not that I feel like I want to log in, but I’m afraid of what I’ll miss if I don’t. That is directly from predatory monetization handbook, section ‘habit forming’. Easier to prey on people if you get them to log in every day. ---
**Author:** ![Xuxe\_Xu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuxe_xu/32/464660_2.png) [@Xuxe\_Xu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuxe_Xu)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/99 "2020-10-20T02:21:20Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > > [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > > > How do you stay so calm? 🤨 > > The Buddha. Reality: # SERENITY NOW!!! ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/100 "2020-10-20T02:22:12Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > when CCP introduces premium ammo? I mean, then the claim that this is “P2W” might actually be real. Until then, it’s whining because some forum kids don’t realize that just because you _can_ spend money on something, does not automatically make it “pay to win”. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/101 "2020-10-20T02:24:04Z")
Pay to win = buying in-game advantages with cash. How is it _not_ pay to win? ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/102 "2020-10-20T02:25:38Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > How is it _not_ pay to win? Please explain how some skins and a skillbook gives you an objective advantage over players who do not purchase the bundle. What “advantages”? Are you seriously going to claim that “the ability to train Carriers, Dreads, FAXes” and “the ability to use Fighters (while not being able to fly the ship that uses them)” is really an advantage? That’s considered “winning”? Because that’s what you’re literally paying for with this bundle. If you’re going to make up fake bundles that CCP hasn’t made that include these mythical “premium ammo”, then go make your own threat with your own fanfiction. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/103 "2020-10-20T02:29:03Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > What “advantages”? Gaining valuable assets for IRL cash is an advantage. Or are you going to claim that having hundreds of millions of ISK worth of skillbooks is not an “advantage” over not having those books? ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/104 "2020-10-20T02:51:13Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Or are you going to claim that having hundreds of millions of ISK worth of skillbooks is not an “advantage” over not having those books? It’s not an advantage. There. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/105 "2020-10-20T02:53:48Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > It’s not an advantage. Ok. So what exactly is the point in further discussion with someone so utterly delusional that they think that 500 million ISK worth of assets is not an advantage over 0 ISK worth of assets? ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501/106 "2020-10-20T02:55:08Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > 500 million ISK worth of assets is not an advantage over 0 ISK worth of assets? How are you this dumb? If the only thing you’re going to do is **reduce the value of the assets to nothing more than ISK value** , then LITERALLY PLEX IS THE SAME. Do you have an issue with players being able to buy PLEX? Because I can sell PLEX for ISK too. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/grumble-grumble-p2w-capital-skill-books-grumble-grumble/274501.md?page=6)