# HAC balance, what happened to it? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [June 25, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208 "2018-06-25T23:45:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/101 "2018-07-05T12:27:10Z")
well he references the ahacs having good speed and sig then shows t1 variants with better speed and sig and what about shield buffer which boosts sig to size of a battlecruiser its kinda funny you use that link to show roles of ahacs while the link itself shows ships that perform the same role the only thing ahacs really have going for them is the t2 resists ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/102 "2018-07-05T12:30:17Z")
Is a hybrid of a fox and a cat a pink animal ? Some will genuinely ask about for curiosity, other will have just had a bad nightmare in which pink lions were licking their feet, people with color blind won’t notice a difference, but since the topic will be derailed we still enjoy the trip, wherever it ends. ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/103 "2018-07-05T12:30:53Z")
fair enough lol ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/104 "2018-07-05T12:36:21Z")
He doesn’t show the T1s with better sig because that doesn’t happen. The first ship he shows is a Navy Omen, the second a Zealot. Try reading it again. HACs have reduced sig just like AFs. Shield tanking is another story. You’ll still have a smaller sig than any other shield cruiser. HACs specialise, as I noted in a post above, in combat. T1s don’t specialise. They are broad-purposed and versatile. And you say “the only thing ahacs really have going for them is the t2 resists” as if that’s no big thing. It is a big thing. It’s a very big thing. It’s part of what helps define it as a combat ship. If you’ve done any degree of PVP, you know how important resists are. If you haven’t, then I can understand your confusion here. It’s also not the only thing they have going for them. They have various other tanking bonuses, as well as damage output bonuses. I saw you talking about HICs earlier as if they were comparable. They’re not. You’ll never get a Phobos to active tank with dual reps the way a Deimos will, and you’ll never ever get the same damage output. You’ll never be able to solo a skilled pvp battleship in a Phobos, you’ll need help. In a Deimos, you have a solid fighting chance. That’s what makes it an assault ship. It’s combat capabilities and bonuses. The only points of contention I’ve seen on HACs being combat specialised so far seem to be from people who are ignorant of their bonuses or the value of those bonuses. The resistance profiles of assault frigates and HACS, as well as their reduced sig, is what makes them so hard to kill. The 600-700dps you can get out of a Deimos and the 400dps from an Enyo are not to be scoffed at. Assault ships are not poorly defined at all. You’re just confused an ill experienced. ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/105 "2018-07-05T12:38:41Z")
> [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > He doesn’t show the T1s with better sig because that doesn’t happen. i just looked at the article he has a navy omen with 68m sig vs zealot with 83m sig the omen is faster too he then goes on to say that t3 cruisers are better at the ahac role than dedicated ahacs the role of ahacs is apparently to orbit an fc according to this article is this article outdated or something ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/106 "2018-07-05T12:45:21Z")
No, I see what you’re talking about. The Navy Omen is a special exception, and where it’s better than HACs in some departments, it’s not as good in others. For example, it’s substantially less tanky and has about half the dps. It’s still an exceptionally low sig radius on the Zealot. But you’re right on this point. I thought you were talking about resistances though, which are clearly and markedly better on the Zealot. Speed is irrelevant and not a defining factor of a HAC though, just FYI. That’s what you’ll get from a HIC. You have to keep in mind that he singled out specific examples of T1 cruisers that are capable of performing the AHAC role. More specifically, it’s a Navy cruiser at that, not just any old T1. And most cruisers are not, or at least, not to the same extent as a designated T2 HAC. As I pointed out, though, T1 cruisers are more versatile and can perform a variety of roles. The specialisation of a HAC makes it generally superior to a T1 cruiser in a combat role. And yes, that blog is out of date in some of the technical details, but the message is there. ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/107 "2018-07-05T12:45:32Z")
> [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > I saw you talking about HICs earlier as if they were comparable. well hics are for catching and tanking big ships while doing little else im saying hacs could be for catching and tanking smaller ships in smaller scale warfare which is why i suggested a combat scanning role to go with it which i admitted might be op > [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > You’ll never get a Phobos to active tank with dual reps the way a Deimos will, i already addressed a dual rep deimos earlier and thats kinda the wunderkin of hacs in small gangs though cerb can be pretty nice too in a gang > [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > The resistance profiles of assault frigates and HACS, as well as their reduced sig, is what makes them so hard to kill. and the adcs which is the new other thing they have going for them hence why i said they are perfect for aggro tackle role > [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > The 600-700dps you can get out of a Deimos and the 400dps from an Enyo are not to be scoffed at yeah but are they the only ships that can pull high numbers not forgetting they have to be in blaster range to do it ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/108 "2018-07-05T12:47:06Z")
> [@JC\_Mieyli](#): > > yeah but are they the only ships that can pull high numbers not forgetting they have to be in blaster range to do it No, of course not. In their size category though? Yes. Yes they are. And getting in blaster range is easy. It’s all about being the predator, not the prey. EDIT: I will also point out that they are getting this DPS in addition to having dual-rep tanks and high resists. Pack an exile booster in cargo and put on your asklepian set, and these ships are easily the deadliest assault ships in the hands of a skilled pilot. ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/109 "2018-07-05T12:49:51Z")
> [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > T1 cruisers are more versatile and can perform a variety of roles. The specialisation of a HAC makes it generally superior to a T1 cruiser in a combat role. exactly a hac is just an upgraded variant of a t1 combat cruiser it slower and tankier and gets extra combat bonuses but it doesnt do anything specialised and i mean we can look at a gila and say it does the same thing as a hac yet its not a hac its a pirate ship for some reason but its the same as a hac and actually better in many hac roles ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/110 "2018-07-05T12:51:53Z")
No, wrong. It specialises in toe-to-toe combat. I already said that above. Combat is their speciality. It’s defined by T2 resist profiles, reduced sig radii, tanking and damage bonuses specifically. You can say a Gila can do the same thing, but you can also say a Procurer can do the same thing. It has drones, it can ‘assault’ things. Gila is not the same as a HAC at all. It might be ‘better’ in a few circumstances, but you keep bringing up pirate and navy ships as if they’re the rule of T1 rather than the very expensive exception. But a Cerberus will swat a Gila down like it’s just another bug tbh. I don’t care how good your drone skills are, a Gila isn’t getting through a skilled Cerb’s tank. Not before the Cerb gets through yours. ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/111 "2018-07-05T12:57:14Z")
> [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > It specialises in toe-to-toe combat so a zealot with no drones no tanking bonus large sig and slow speed make it good for brawling style combat i think your article you linked comes from a time when zealot was used in fleets as a sniper for picking of stealth bombers at that time it had a great role but it was the only hac that could perform that role since they are rebalanced it seems certain hacs are good in certain roles while others arent good at much at all but it seems whether some are good and balanced they still dont have a clearly defined role or position in the meta theyre just as versatile as t1 combat cruisers but just a bit tankier and dpsier thats all they do im not saying theyre in a bad place but im saying it would be better if they had a unique identity ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/112 "2018-07-05T12:59:37Z")
> [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > But a Cerberus will swat a Gila down like it’s just another bug tbh. I don’t care how good your drone skills are, a Gila isn’t getting through a skilled Cerb’s tank. Not before the Cerb gets through yours. idk i think that comes down to fits and playstyles ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/113 "2018-07-05T13:03:02Z")
No tanking bonuses doesn’t mean it doesn’t get the T2 resist profile, which are extremely valuable in combat. And no, I don’t mean ‘brawling’ when I say toe-to-toe, but I can see how it could be interpreted that way. I mean as the frontline unit of a combat fleet. And for the record, it’s still a great sniper ship. Not the kind of ship I’d fly because I AM a brawler and prefer blasters or autocannons. I see your point, and I understand where you’re coming from. But you’re wrong, and from where I’m sitting, it looks like you need more experience in different HACs. The more you fly them, the more you start to understand where they sit in the grand scheme of things, and they are not poorly defined at all. Whether you like it or not, ‘specialised for combat’ is a specialisation, and it is a unique identity. ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/114 "2018-07-05T13:03:53Z")
That could be said of any 1v1, but if I were in a Gila, and I saw a Cerb in my neighbourhood, I’d reship. ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/115 "2018-07-05T13:09:18Z")
ok let me ask a question what hacs can perform roles that cant be performed by t3cs ignoring the sp loss for a moment which i dont think should exist anyway and im not asking for deimos vs proteus either where they both perform quite similar in combat role these days ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/116 "2018-07-05T13:24:48Z")
What interceptors can perform roles that can’t be performed by t1 attack frigates? What exhumers can perform roles that barges can’t? You still continue to miss the point. They are combat specialised. That’s all there is to it. T3Cs can be changed to do something specific on the fly. Just because you can change them to perform a similar role to a HAC doesn’t mean HACs aren’t defined. In fact, by defining the HAC role using a HAC as an example, you know how to fit a T3C to be one. You also continue to use exceptions rather than rules. I get what you’re saying. The ‘identity’ of some ships is more well defined than others. A black ops battleship can do things that a battleship cannot. But a HAC does things that a cruiser can too. I get it. I’m hearing you. But the niche that HACs fill is combat specialisation. Just because every other ship in the game can fit a blaster and a tank and shoot at something doesn’t mean that the assault role for assault-specific ships isn’t defined or isn’t needed. It might not be a flashy identity like a Lamborghini hypercar with 1700 exhaust pipes vs a family sedan, but it is one nonetheless, like a utility truck vs a station wagon. Both can carry a load in the back, but the ute is specialised for it. Sometimes the station wagon actually does it better, but the ute is still specialised for it. It’s lighter up the back, with a big tray complete with hooks for straps and the like. Sure, I can fit a BBQ in the back of a Volvo, but I’d rather use a Toyota Hilux because the suspension on the Volvo isn’t as tough as the Hilux. ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/117 "2018-07-05T13:29:31Z")
> [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > What interceptors can perform roles that can’t be performed by t1 attack frigates? all of them > [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > What exhumers can perform roles that barges can’t? idk i dont mine > [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > doesn’t mean that the assault role for assault-specific ships isn’t defined or isn’t needed thats what i wonder tho is it really needed you talk as a solo pvper so you should know how easily a rattlesnake will chew through a hac gang and thats where a lot of my experience lies and in fw a hac cant even get into most fights especially not solo idk where you do pvp or how you operate but personally if i was solo in cruiser i would take a recon or stratios or t3 over a hac ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/118 "2018-07-05T13:39:23Z")
First of all, don’t talk as if a Rattlesnake chewing through HACs is something special. It chews through most things. Again, rules, not exceptions. For the record, if a Rattlesnake is chewing through a HAC gang, then they are either a really small HAC gang, or a bad HAC gang. As for fw, I tend to find that most people out there prefer to avoid fights and just farm ‘points’ or whatever. So yeah, I can see why you’d want a cloaky. I look for fights, though. That means I want people to see me. I usually undership so they are more confident in engaging. This means flying something they feel confident they can kill. I’ve had to learn how to maximise every ship I fly doing that [in order to win fights like this one for example](https://youtu.be/1woKNP9bwUE). So I frequently undership for the occasion. Now, I haven’t flown everything. For example, I’m not very familiar with Amarr HACs, I only know what I’ve read. I’m most familiar with frigates, and Gallente HACs, and draw my understanding from my experience with them. I’ve solo’d a Barghest, a Nightmare, and an Hyperion in my Deimos. I think our difference in understanding comes from our difference in experience, to be honest. Most HACs that wander into my lowsec are PVE’ers and I’ll only bother going after them if there are no PVP’ers looking for a fight, and I can probe/scan them down. As far as I can tell, most people, even many of the PVP’ers I’ve killed, don’t understand how to HAC, especially solo. I’ve actually brought this up with a few of my friends I fly with as well. We all have HACs and have a massive AHAC + Guardian doctrine for certain circumstances. Also, Ishtar fleets are pretty good for Citadel defence, though I probably wouldn’t fly an Ishtar solo. I do my PVP loud and proud, and personally hold those who need to sneak to get a kill in rather low esteem. Kiters, too, but not quite as low. Too many people looking for easy kills, not enough with the balls for a risky fight these days. EDIT: I think that’s the point of the HAC. The fight. It’s for people that want to fight. Maybe win, maybe lose, who cares? The point is the fight. A good fight is like good sex. If you feel like a smoke and a nap when it’s over, it doesn’t matter who was ■■■■■■■ who, it was a good fight. ---
**Author:** ![JC\_Mieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jc_mieyli/32/242789_2.png) [@JC\_Mieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JC_Mieyli)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/119 "2018-07-05T13:51:46Z")
> [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > First of all, don’t talk as if a Rattlesnake chewing through HACs is something special you said i was inexperienced pvper im just saying i pvp a lot in rs and chew through gangs > [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > As for fw, I tend to find that most people out there prefer to avoid fights and just farm ‘points’ or whatever well i guess it depends on the space you are in plenty of people looking for fights in fw space especially if youre in t1 frig because you can get into all the sites and youre a tasty target in t1 frig so in personal experience t1 frig gangs are fun in fw anything above t1 frig is limited because it cant access all the sites > [@Remiel\_Pollard](#): > > I think our difference in understanding comes from our difference in experience yes i agree we both fly specific types of ships in specific types of space looking for specific fights to pick like you said you undership for fights but youre not going to undership unless you know what youre fighting otherwise youre likely to get stomped if you just purposely use a bad ship against an unknown group of hostiles ---
**Author:** ![Remiel\_Pollard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remiel_pollard/32/242272_2.png) [@Remiel\_Pollard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remiel_Pollard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208/120 "2018-07-05T14:01:06Z")
> [@JC\_Mieyli](#): > > like you said you undership for fights but youre not going to undership unless you know what youre fighting > otherwise youre likely to get stomped if you just purposely use a bad ship against an unknown group of hostiles I think you misunderstand. I fly around in lowsec in frigs, like the navy maulus in that vid, so I’m already undershipped when something shows up. I’ll reship if I know the outcome of a fight, whether it’s in my favour or their’s. I’m most interested in fights with unknown results, not fights that are pre-determined one way or the other. I don’t care about winning or losing, I care about the fight. Anyway, this is a digression now. I’m sure with my experience you’d see things the way I do but without that, I can only explain how it is. HACs are fine. A few of them could use a buff but not much of one tbh. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hac-balance-what-happened-to-it/85208.md?page=7)