# Heathens and heretics **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783 "2020-10-29T14:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/21 "2020-11-09T20:20:59Z")
I do not believe sin is heritable, or that Faith is transactional; given your prominence in discussing Lord Lok’ri’s [discourse](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550) upon precisely this theological point, you have been aware of the divergent views for some time. ---
**Author:** ![Bravo\_Atruin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bravo_atruin/32/256799_2.png) [@Bravo\_Atruin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bravo_Atruin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/22 "2020-11-09T20:34:56Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > it is not ignorance that is condemned, but rejection. So, your God is insecure? That’s what I’m hearing. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/23 "2020-11-09T23:26:29Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > you have been aware of the divergent views for some time. Which does not make them any less divergent, or my statement any less accurate about the orthodox position. You know, the one that _doesn’t_ eventually get people labelled ‘heretic’ when they’re no longer massively wealthy and powerful space-borne engines of destruction. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jesoph\_Swolin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jesoph_swolin/32/383423_2.png) [@Jesoph\_Swolin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jesoph_Swolin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 5:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/24 "2020-11-10T05:08:41Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > I am by no means saying everyone should be a Renouncer. It is also a core tenet of Renouncer - and many other - Minmatar beliefs that there is no one true spiritualism, but what is right for you depends on who you and yours are. Yes, which is why I find it very peculiar that some clans and tribes adopt the Amarrian deity into their traditions, even if this is done as an elder spirit of the Amarr people, as it is their god, not ours. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > My belief is that trying to deny history is not the living tradition I should live. For me and mine, tradition is about taking what your parents and grandparents and their parents and grandparents and – THANK YOU translator implant – what your [translate as: Amarrian: _immediate ancestors_] did and applying that to your own living life. For me, ignoring the centuries of darkness and pretending they had no effect and no spirits exist in and of that dark time, and trying to go back to some book-learned or barely-passed-on version of old, old customs like the Revivalists do, that would not be the right way. Book-learned, ever unchanging ways are Scripture, not Tradition. It is not revivalism, nor is it denying history. It is simply that they have erased so much of our culture that tainting what is left of it by adopting any of their culture in any way shape or form would only further compound the damage. The war they wage is not just one of armies and fleets. If they cannot get us through those means, they will try to do so through cultural warfare. This feels like giving them a foot in the door. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Do not take me wrong. I am glad Revivalist clans exist, too. We can learn from them and their ways and find out what there is they have found out that will mesh with our ways. But for me, it would be a dishonour to cast aside all the ancestors in between. How does guarding against Amarrian cultural influences dishonour the ancestors? ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 6:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/25 "2020-11-10T06:38:21Z")
> [@Jesoph\_Swolin](#): > > How does guarding against Amarrian cultural influences dishonour the ancestors? Before I answer I want to stress there is a specific case where not including foreign spirits in what we believe to be real would do that for a Renouncer. I do not mean to imply all guarding against further influences would be that, nor do I mean to imply Renouncer ways are somehow objectively more real or better than other clans’ ways. I also apologize for this public discussion of private matters and regret the distastefulness but I do in fact think that understanding of these issues by a wider audience benefits the tribes and am willing to suffer the embarrassment involved. Alright. So some - a lot - of my ancestors lived all their lives in the Darkness. All they did was in that Darkness. All their thoughts and all their ways were influenced by it. They lived under the rule of the Amarr God. Should I pretend that never happened? Should I forget what they went through? How do I guard against that influence if I don’t have a name for it? The Amarr God’s influence on my family line is very clear and very strong. If I deny it exists and try to live as if it never happened or is not real, I am denying the reality my ancerstors lived in, the reality of what they were, and making them an image of my dreams rather than of their true spirit. Better acknowledge it, give it a name and an explanation, and then explicitly Renounce. ---
**Author:** ![Bravo\_Atruin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bravo_atruin/32/256799_2.png) [@Bravo\_Atruin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bravo_Atruin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 7:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/26 "2020-11-10T07:17:02Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Better acknowledge it, give it a name and an explanation, and then explicitly Renounce. “This is the Amarr spirit. Here’s a four-page summary of why exactly we give him the middle finger at every chance. In conclusion, grr Amarr-thing, hat Amarr-thing.” I’ve never really contemplated these things, which I can pretty much blame directly on Amarr-thing’s followers. That said, the whole Renouncer thing is starting to appeal to me. Like, yeah, we’re including him in the story so we can talk ■■■■ about him. _- A long rant consisting of approximately 68% expletive idioms has been edited out after this point._ ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 9:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/27 "2020-11-10T09:10:47Z")
> [@Bravo\_Atruin](#): > > “This is the Amarr spirit. Here’s a four-page summary of why exactly we give him the middle finger at every chance. In conclusion, grr Amarr-thing, hat Amarr-thing.” The local shamans put it in somewhat more eloquently, but pretty much, yes. Not that Renouncement is _everything_ Renouncers believe in. For my own clan, concepts like Ladies Fate and Luck, Freedom the Vagabond, ghosts of the dead and unformed minds, and everything being an aspect of the All-spirit in the end, are what we carry in the everyday. But we Renounce, to remind ourselves that there are threats to them, and that we must never become such a threat to others outselves. ---
**Author:** ![Bravo\_Atruin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bravo_atruin/32/256799_2.png) [@Bravo\_Atruin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bravo_Atruin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 9:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/28 "2020-11-10T09:59:31Z")
Now I’m even more intrigued, but perhaps it’s best to continue that tangent in another setting. ---
**Author:** ![Jesoph\_Swolin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jesoph_swolin/32/383423_2.png) [@Jesoph\_Swolin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jesoph_Swolin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/29 "2020-11-10T21:52:20Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Alright. So some - a lot - of my ancestors lived all their lives in the Darkness. All they did was in that Darkness. All their thoughts and all their ways were influenced by it. They lived under the rule of the Amarr God. > > Should I pretend that never happened? Should I forget what they went through? How do I guard against that influence if I don’t have a name for it? > > The Amarr God’s influence on my family line is very clear and very strong. If I deny it exists and try to live as if it never happened or is not real, I am denying the reality my ancer > stors lived in, the reality of what they were, and making them an image of my dreams rather than of their true spirit. I do not pretend that the Days of Darkness never happened. I am not sure why you imply this. They inflicted the Days of Darkness upon our ancestors in the name of their god. They forced their god upon our ancestors. From my perspective, I owe it to my ancestors not to acknowledge the Amarrian god. That does not mean that I deny it’s existence, because I have no interest in that question. It simply means that I hate what has been done in it’s name, what is being done in it’s name and what will be done in it’s name to such a degree that I don’t want to hear or speak about it. I did so here because your words confused me greatly, and they continue to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/30 "2020-11-10T23:18:55Z")
For my part, and Else may intend something similar… to acknowledge the resistance to and rejection of the Amarr god requires acknowledging what our ancestors rejected, what it was they were resisting. Refusing to acknowledge it, and the impact its followers have had upon us, leaves us no way to honor those who fought against it. You cannot honor someone’s struggle without acknowledging what they fought against. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 4:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/31 "2020-11-11T04:40:58Z")
> [@Jesoph\_Swolin](#): > > I do not pretend that the Days of Darkness never happened. I am not sure why you imply this. Are you a Renouncer? Because if you are not, I implied no such thing. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Before I answer I want to stress there is a specific case where not including foreign spirits in what we believe to be real would do that **for a Renouncer** (emphasis added) > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > It is also a core tenet of Renouncer - and many other - Minmatar beliefs that there is no one true spiritualism > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > am by no means saying everyone should be a Renouncer. I most sincerely apologize for sounding like I intended to impose, and stop here. ---
**Author:** ![Ayallah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ayallah/32/302740_2.png) [@Ayallah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ayallah)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/32 "2020-11-11T19:02:03Z")
As always the coward accuses others of cowardice. God is the only thing worthy of worship or respect Arrendis. One day, after the long pain of your life, you will understand and weep. Pray that you will not be weeping alone. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/33 "2020-11-11T20:14:28Z")
> [@Ayallah](#): > > Pray that you will not be weeping alone. The rest of your nonsense aside, I can assure you that she’s in no danger of being alone. ---
**Author:** ![Ikeryo\_Telvano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikeryo_telvano/32/240230_2.png) [@Ikeryo\_Telvano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikeryo_Telvano)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/34 "2020-11-11T20:29:40Z")
> [@Ayallah](#): > > God is the only thing worthy of worship or respect Arrendis. What makes an entity worthy of worship to your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/35 "2020-11-11T20:45:10Z")
> [@Ayallah](#): > > God is the only thing worthy of worship or respect Arrendis. My dyslexic ass read this as: “The only thing worthy of worship or respect is Arrendis”. I say we found this religion. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/36 "2020-11-11T21:59:52Z")
> [@Arsia\_Elkin](#): > > I can assure you that she’s in no danger of being alone. Awww, love you too, hon. 🙂 > [@Tyrel\_Toov](#): > > “The only thing worthy of worship or respect is Arrendis”. I say we found this religion. Is my ego not _already_ overfed? C’mon, man. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Literia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/literia/32/491152_2.png) [@Literia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Literia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2020, 6:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/37 "2020-11-12T06:34:21Z")
How can one believe in a god that forsakes them? God is a figment of imagination with no actual scientific factual evidence in. It is something that the Amarr use to put us in chains to ease their conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2020, 7:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/38 "2020-11-12T07:02:20Z")
Myths do not have to be real to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Ikeryo\_Telvano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ikeryo_telvano/32/240230_2.png) [@Ikeryo\_Telvano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ikeryo_Telvano)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/39 "2020-11-12T15:54:37Z")
> [@Literia](#): > > God is a figment of imagination with no actual scientific factual evidence in. If we’re being fair, the realm of Science is the physical while the realm of Faith is the spiritual. Attempting to use one to justify or explain the other will usually result in circular reasoning. It is best to allow them both to work simultaneously in compliment to gain a better understanding of truth. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783/40 "2020-11-21T16:42:15Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Renouncers are not heathens, unknowing of God’s will; they are heretics, twisting the meaning of it away from its intended purpose. To highlight Elsbeths point between heathen and heretic: a dominant belief among the Brutor clans, and indeed many clans of the other tribes, is that the Amarr god is just another spirit in a universe of spirits, functionally no different than say Pator, or the old mother. We do not hold that this spirit is specifically the main spirit of anything, only that its goals are to corrupt all and jealously horde as much as it can. The legend goes that this spirit and those that is has corrupted once attempted to corrupt and claim the Matari people, but failed. In their failure they fled and found the Amarr. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/heathens-and-heretics/276783.md?page=3)