# Hey, CCP. i know what your doing and i dont think its going to work **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [April 1, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434 "2021-04-01T14:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 5:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/101 "2021-04-05T05:58:46Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I swear, there’s something about the carebear play style that just attracts the _worst_ possible human beings. No, they are people with different from yours set of values and goals they have for the game. **Them** That’s why you call it _cowardice and egoism_. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Intelligent people don’t actually think this way. They acknowledge the flaws inherent in themselves and the systems they are a part of. You put yourself in quite delicate position. You either are a hypocrite who doesn’t actually think this, or are not intelligent by your own merit. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 6:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/102 "2021-04-05T06:10:45Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > No, they are people with different from yours set of values and goals they have for the game. Being “different” doesn’t excuse something from being better or worse in relation to other things. > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > You put yourself in quite delicate position. You either are a hypocrite who doesn’t actually think this, or are not intelligent by your own merit. No, it just means that I acknowledge my own flaws. But it doesn’t mean that my flaws are as bad as those of a self-serving coward. ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 8:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/103 "2021-04-05T08:32:08Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Being “different” doesn’t excuse something from being better or worse in relation to other things. Me being different from you does not require me having an excuse. I like other stuff, I value other stuff, I interact with people differently, mostly by ignoring. As long as CCP consider us both net positive we should learn to coexist. Sandbox should allow for that. Some carebears demand safespace. Merin advocates they removed WarpCoreStabs. Both views equally marginal in my book. Your _better or worse_ have nothing to do with objective _good for the game/bad for the game_. It’s just something you and probably people you play with value. * * * Comunism/capitalism argument started with Merin’s usual > [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Farming to get ISK for PLEX is the endless cycle of menial grinding for the privilege of menial grinding next month, leading boredom and quitting the game instead of spending in-game time having fun. Which is quite autharitarian and ignorant that people find different things fun. Farming PVE is what constitutes fun for me, while combat PVP does not. I don’t care if its menial grind in your view. Idea of equality of opportunity often attributed to capitalism. While idea of equality of outcome is attributed to goals of communism. But the latter is technically impossible if you think about it. People want different things, people value different things, they devote different amount of time and effort. If you reward every player equal sum of ISK they will perceive it differently. So I don’t think you argue communism/capitalism. > [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Pay to win is for people who suck at EVE and suck at life and should never have been introduced. Remove injectors, remove pay to win skill rental, remove character transfers, remove PLEX, and impose strict two factor authentication tied to IRL identity to prevent illegal character sales. If you want something in the game you can play the game and achieve it, not just pull out your credit card and declare yourself a winner. That is also pretty autharitarian and stupid TBH. That is like demanding CCP kicked out half of their players, and stopped taking money from the rest. That is like demanding a supermarket stopped serving obese people, and only sold one loaf of bread and a bottle of water to the rest. Come on. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 9:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/104 "2021-04-05T09:09:20Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > one side is more introverted and another is more extraverted > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Gankers are equally _asocial,_ I dont think these two things go hand in hand. > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > _opportunistic-backstabbing_ crowd Thats the EvE Player base, whether you feel you are part of it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 9:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/105 "2021-04-05T09:30:42Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Thats the EvE Player base, whether you feel you are part of it or not. It really isn’t. That’s why carebears are so prone to taking bait. A good majority of my thousands of carebear kills came from baiting _them_ into attacking, and the only way to do that is to appear so defenseless and incompetent that their greed takes over their rational thought processes. Fight other fighters and you’ll see that they’re much more driven by objectives. Also, I’ve been in a wide variety of corporations, and stuff like corp theft and betrayals was almost exclusively in the domain of the carebear ones. In PvP groups you have to worry about spying and intelligence/counterintelligence ops, but that comes with then territory. Clearing out corporate hangars or stealing ships and such, though? Carebears almost every single time. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/106 "2021-04-05T10:09:41Z")
Huh? Everyone is. You cannot have success in EvE without being opportunistic. Backstabbing comes with the territory. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I’ve been in a wide variety of corporations, and stuff like corp theft and betrayals was almost exclusively in the domain of the carebear ones. Well my experience differs, but that aside, doing something backstabby or opportunistic is not dependent on doing it to your own corp. Ninja looting is opportunistic and Ive done to in a backstabby manner a number of times. The idea theres some sort of moral equilibrium that some are above and others are under is a construct of a mind that just cant accept that everyone eventually is equally amoral. Im not accusing you of that, I had assumed you of the sort that understood everyone is capable of anything and there’s no in-built morality other than that which we construct. But theres a fair few folks in this world who view every success as their own but every failure as a moral failure of others. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 10:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/107 "2021-04-05T10:18:09Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Ninja looting is opportunistic and Ive done to in a backstabby manner a number of times. That’s competitive, not “backstabby.” There’s no element of betrayal involved in it, unless you’re referring to taking friendly loot and not giving it back/sharing it if it was an enemy kill, in which case, once again, carebears lead the way in terms of opportunism. PvPers are much more concerned with the well-being of their allies, even if the motive is somewhat self-serving because they want their allies to be motivated and funded in order to fulfill their roles in the group. Would I blindly trust _anyone_? No, but I’d be much less trusting of some than others, and my methods of judging people have served me well over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 10:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/108 "2021-04-05T10:26:19Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > That’s competitive, not “backstabby.” There’s no element of betrayal involved in it, unless you’re referring to taking friendly loot and not giving it back/sharing it if it was an enemy kill, in which case, once again, carebears lead the way in terms of opportunism. Carebears are far less likely to be in a position to do that, if carebears are defined as being risk adverse to pvp combat. I dont hold that a) theres strict non-overlapping of playstyles. I dont PvP, I dunno if youd call me a carebear as Im not adverse to it as a threat. b) either group is less likely to either pass up an opportunity for gain at another’s expense, or that there is nothing that would tempt them to betray their alleged friends. However that said, it is much _easier_ for me to betray a group of folk who talk big but do nothing, who have big self image but no sense of taking blame for their faults, so if your position IS more accurate then my view is that it may seem that way because certain players invite it with their attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 10:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/109 "2021-04-05T10:33:53Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > I dont hold that a) theres strict non-overlapping of playstyles. I dont PvP, I dunno if youd call me a carebear as Im not adverse to it as a threat. There are normal players, some of whom PvP and some don’t, and then there are carebears. I’m a player, you’re a player, and carebears are in their own special group. > [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > b) either group is less likely to either pass up an opportunity for gain at another’s expense, or that there is nothing that would tempt them to betray their alleged friends. The threshold is vastly different. And the non-carebear subset of players contains a bigger proportion of those who would _never_ engage in backstabbing. Anyway, all of this is anecdotal, and most likely can’t be scientifically quantified. However, I’ve dealt with an exceptionally large amount of players in the game, and stick by this observation. > [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > However that said, it is much _easier_ for me to betray a group of folk who talk big but do nothing, who have big self image but no sense of taking blame for their faults, so if your position IS more accurate then my view is that it may seem that way because certain players invite it with their attitude. Since they usually steal from each other, and since they idolize the pursuit of personal gain at the expense of _everyone_ else, being disgusted by attitudes that so closely mimic their own would require an _exceptional_ lack of self-awareness. …Hmm. Which I guess could very well be the case considering the people we’re talking about here… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 10:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/110 "2021-04-05T10:39:24Z")
I think we may see a tail out one side of the forest and a trunk out the other and be calling it the same elephant Then, we look, and turns out, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/111 "2021-04-05T13:48:38Z")
I wish the whole carebear/ganker dynamic wasn’t so hostile. The best possible outcome of a gank is to wake up the victim to a different, better way of playing the game. Most “carebears” cannot even imagine a different (PvP) way of playing - they think the only way to play the game is to hoard isk via farming (missions or mining). Some of them, perhaps, imagine that someday they will have so much isk that they will be able to afford player interaction - but that day never comes. ---
**Author:** ![Xanthellus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xanthellus/32/253691_2.png) [@Xanthellus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xanthellus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/112 "2021-04-05T13:53:34Z")
I’d say that are large portion of the gankers are carebears themselves. I’d also say that this whole “we’re trying to wake them up so they can enjoy the true game” is largely BS. I’m sure it applies to some, I’m also sure doesn’t apply to most. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/113 "2021-04-05T14:00:29Z")
There is definitely a whole spectrum of people working at ganking. But there is an equally large spectrum of people that are working the other side of the play. That is what makes all the extreme generalization from both sides hard to accept. ---
**Author:** ![Hug\_Motsu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hug_motsu/32/264439_2.png) [@Hug\_Motsu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hug_Motsu)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/114 "2021-04-05T14:25:30Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > That said, Merin’s interpretation is by far the most accurate. ok first of all, you are very rude and obnoxious, i don’t even want to debate with someone like that… cus all you come up with is personal attacks like i’m a “mouth-breathing Dunning-Krugers who say stuff”. secondly, no you are wrong, so is Merin. Because you do not share the same noun “classification” of skill points, as i do. _let me tell you about my classification of skillpoints and why._ The concept “time is money” is non-negotiable in eve. As time progress, people earn skill points, and those skill points are a direct trade for money and capabilities. = Skillpoints is an economical factor, in this game. (aswell as, the trade around it beeing the climax of capitalism) Thus, as Merin propose: > [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Remove injectors, remove pay to win skill rental (_‘expert system’ i believe he means_), remove character transfers, remove PLEX, is indeed communism, as he wants everyone to have the same economical ‘edge’, **as well as favoring a closed market.** I admit I haven’t read up on communism/socialism/whatever-ism, as in the long run, its pretty useless knowledge to have, and I find that people who like these subjects are simply and nicely put … not my people. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > It really isn’t. > > **That’s why carebears are so prone to taking bait**. **A good majority of my thousands of carebear kills came from baiting _them_ into attacking** you do know the point of being a carebear is to steer away from pvp? for various reasons… what you are describing is not a carebear but the typical ganker who only taking fights they think they can win. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/115 "2021-04-05T14:55:46Z")
Yeah, pretty useless knowledge. Especially for you - it sounds like you have everything figured out already. ---
**Author:** ![Hug\_Motsu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hug_motsu/32/264439_2.png) [@Hug\_Motsu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hug_Motsu)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/116 "2021-04-05T15:03:23Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > Yeah, pretty useless knowledge. Especially for you - it sounds like you have everything figured out already. dude… you can get far with logic and reasonable thinking, trying to see other point of views, without your own emotions. you dont have to read history books on governmental rule or social economics, if you are an ordinary guy. _as these facts are a completely useless subject, with little to non-usefullness in the real world…_ _the knowledge attained in this subject is pretty much only used for internet shitpostings and “intellectual smalltalk/debate” aka. trying to prove to others “how smart you are” or that you are “right”_ I put “intellectual debate” in quotes, as it’s not really intellectual to try to prove that you’re an intellectual to others… it’s just a waste of time tbh. nor is it intellectual to come in here, or anywhere… by sarcasm trying to debunk others’ thoughts and opinions with some sort of “unspoken common knowledge”, that’s just bullying. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/117 "2021-04-05T15:24:00Z")
History is pretty dumb, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/118 "2021-04-05T15:28:17Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Which is quite autharitarian and ignorant that people find different things fun. People farming to pay for more farming are not having fun. Can you honestly say that you never _do_ anything with the ISK you generate? > That is also pretty autharitarian and stupid TBH. That is like demanding CCP kicked out half of their players, and stopped taking money from the rest. Yes, it is defniitely “authoritarian and stupid” to want a game that doesn’t have the option to buy success with IRL cash. Do you also consider it “authoritarian and stupid” that the NFL doesn’t allow teams to pay for touchdowns? Are you outraged that the game is decided on the field, and not by the losing team sending $100 million to the league in exchange for the 7 points they need to win? > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Carebears avoid risk as a pragmatic decision about optimizing their strategies for playing a game, gankers crave interacting with other people because they’re **terrified** of being alone and become genuinely upset if nobody notices them. > > We can play it all day ) You can play stupid word games all day but that doesn’t make any of it true. The simple fact here is that carebears _don’t_ just avoid risk because they’ve made a pragmatic optimization choice. Carebears would rather stay docked and make zero ISK than face the chance of loss, even if their net profit after deducting the losses would be significant. And carebears are the ones who take losses personally and escalate to IRL death threats, verbal abuse, etc, because to them it’s more than just decisions in a game. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/119 "2021-04-05T15:29:17Z")
> [@Hug\_Motsu](#): > > I admit I haven’t read up on communism/socialism/whatever-ism So then why are you trying to use those terms in a discussion? Do your basic research and maybe you’ll stop posting stupid things. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434/120 "2021-04-05T15:34:33Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > You cannot have success in EvE without being opportunistic. Backstabbing comes with the territory. I don’t think the two are really the same. Gankers are opportunistic, but they mostly stab you in the face. Everyone knows any alliances are merely an alliance of convenience that currently is in everyone’s best interest, and that self-interest is the highest priority. You can’t really betray someone when they know you’re out to get them and merely find you useful enough at the moment that they’ll work with you for a while. Carebears are selfish and cowardly and stab you in the back. They’re the ones who will say all the words about being moral and honorable and “just helping newbies learn the game”, but then as soon as there’s 10 million ISK in the corp wallet they’ll loot it and make a reddit post bragging about their heist. They’re fundamentally cowards who like to prey on the people unfortunate enough to trust them, preferably newbies who don’t understand the game well enough to spot the scam. Textbook example: Neeri/Noori/Naari and his “help the newbies” scam corp, where he incessantly spams the forums with demands for more safety in highsec so that his members can get more farming income that goes straight into the corp tax and his personal wallet. It’s a petty scam, but it’s one where the newbies will never be able to threaten him. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hey-ccp-i-know-what-your-doing-and-i-dont-think-its-going-to-work/303434.md?page=7)