# High Sec issues I have heard, from both new & old **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 17, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518 "2018-03-17T11:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/62 "2018-03-19T17:16:25Z")
I have a better one, set training queue for 6-9 month’s pay the subscription log out and just troll the forum. Worth every penny. ---
**Author:** ![Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gadget_helmsdottir/32/374037_2.png) [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gadget_Helmsdottir)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/63 "2018-03-19T17:19:24Z")
And yet… You keep coming back to complain about something you don’t play. Kindly quit wasting all the cool alt names. 😄 –Perplexed Gadget ---
**Author:** ![Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wavemistress_moidel/32/211447_2.png) [@Wavemistress\_Moidel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wavemistress_Moidel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/64 "2018-03-19T17:30:23Z")
Got a ton of em. ---
**Author:** ![LouHodo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/louhodo/32/109593_2.png) [@LouHodo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/LouHodo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/65 "2018-03-19T17:48:17Z")
There are a lot of assumptions in this post. You are assuming that vets are farming noobs for no other reason than to get kills. And you are assuming that these vets are good at pvp. I can tell you now that as a vet with 10+ years, I am not godly, unkillable, or any of those things. My killboard proves that point. I am not mega rich, or living in nullsec, although I have lived in null for a while. There are those that hunt and kill noobs, there are those that hunt and kill EVERYBODY… and there are those that do not hunt or kill anyone. Yes there are some that are worth trillions of isk, but that is life. It isnt because they have been around for ever. Some got that way through skill, others through luck, and others through real life money dumping it into the game to sell PLEX. Most of the “issues” you list are more like excuses, not really issues. To me it goes back to the old saying… HTFU. ---
**Author:** ![Auto-da-fe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auto-da-fe/32/53227_2.png) [@Auto-da-fe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auto-da-fe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/66 "2018-03-19T17:55:33Z")
I apologize. I did NOT mean to derail a serious … well … a civil discussion about the problem of Bumping. But, like I said before. IF these so-called “Simple Steps” were intended by the developers AND these “simple steps” are not being followed or even considered by players THEN _ **competent developers** _ would tweak, buff, nerf, patch until the intended gameplay was brought about. The fact that CCP does NOT behave like competent developers is an indication that a) Its far too complex a problem for them. b) Just like everything else in the game they NEVER INTENDED these mechanics and therefore can’t tweak them because they have no overall design or guiding development philosophy! The one and only solution to the problems in EVE Online (ie. Bumping) is to Throw EVE Online in the trash and start over again. from scratch! ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/67 "2018-03-19T18:02:22Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > The fact that a freighter needs to be bumped is a testament to how strong those ships are. If they could be ganked easily, there’d be no need to move them away from sentry guns and/or hold them until a suitable gank fleet can get in place. This is a load of rubbish. Freighters can be ganked on the gate under gate guns very easily. There is no bumping necessary at all. The absolutely only reason why gankers bump is because their alts need time to log in and travel. That’s the only reason. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > The balance is initially well in favour of Freighters. It’s only once there is 20-30 gankers in place to kill it, that it loses its advantage and the balance swings the other way. That is a load of rubbish, too. You need around 9-12 characters to destroy a cargo expanded freighter if you take bombers, 6-8 if you take Taloses. > **[Obelisk | Gallente Citizen 006 | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68807769/)** > > Gallente Citizen 006 (Eve Corporation 000) lost their Obelisk in Uedama (The Citadel). Final Blow by Shanade Rozei (The Conference Elite) flying in a Hound. Total Value: 5,706,509,661.08 ISK > **[Providence | Reiko Kurosawa | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/52626581/)** > > Reiko Kurosawa (Bellum internecivum) lost their Providence in Niarja (Domain). Final Blow by Klioris (Penny Scrapers) flying in a Talos. Total Value: 1,426,127,716.13 ISK (the extreme example. It involved bumping, but evidenced by the lack of pods on the mail (except for the suicide tackle) even these 6 Taloses were enough to kill a freighter. You apparently even only need around 10-13 chars in Taloses to kill a tanked freighter. > **[Charon | Beth Kurai | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68806090/)** > > Beth Kurai (School of Applied Knowledge) lost their Charon in Uedama (The Citadel). Final Blow by Sherri Rozei (The Conference Elite) flying in a Talos. Total Value: 3,090,787,058.71 ISK And CODE brings even way too many characters when the freighter is anti-tank fitted, as evidenced here > **[Charon | Nikola Onzo | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68758476/)** > > Nikola Onzo (Spaceballs Company) lost their Charon in Uedama (The Citadel). Final Blow by tumblr ptsd (WMMWWMWMMMWMWWMWMWMWWWMWMWMMWMWMWWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMW) flying in a Catalyst. Total Value: 3,637,622,528.20 ISK > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > So the bumping doesn’t break the balance. It is the other half of the balance that commences with the massive tank that freighters can achieve. This is a load of rubbish. Educate yourself before you type something for Steve’s sake. :facepalm: ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/68 "2018-03-19T18:14:59Z")
Wrong on all points. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/69 "2018-03-19T18:32:06Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > That is a load of rubbish, too. You need around 9-12 characters to destroy a cargo expanded freighter if you take bombers, 6-8 if you take Taloses. Then maybe you should tank your ship. Maybe not take on so much risk. ---
**Author:** ![LouHodo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/louhodo/32/109593_2.png) [@LouHodo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/LouHodo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/70 "2018-03-19T18:37:06Z")
> [@Auto-da-fe](#): > > Step 2: Log into another game made by competent developers. Tell me what game that is? Because I am willing to say there is not ONE game out there where the community agrees the devs know what they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/71 "2018-03-19T19:09:50Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > This is a load of rubbish. Freighters can be ganked on the gate under gate guns very easily. There is no bumping necessary at all. The absolutely only reason why gankers bump is because their alts need time to log in and travel. That’s the only reason. Yes they can be. Of course. However doing so requires more gank ships,because the sentry guns engage immediately. So bumping out of sentry gun range reduces the number of catalysts required by a couple. So before you talk a load of ■■■■■■■■, get a clue. > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > That is a load of rubbish, too. You need around 9-12 characters to destroy a cargo expanded freighter if you take bombers, 6-8 if you take Taloses. Yes, the gank ship used changes the number of characters needed, and it’s easy to pull out individual situations that differ from the norm. However, her are some recent stats: > [@Gankers and freighters, a request for discussion. Not a BJ RANT](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/gankers-and-freighters-a-request-for-discussion-not-a-bj-rant/61236/285): > > OP, I think the perception you have is a common one, but the actual rate of freighter loss overall in highsec is low. Since the end of Burn Jita, I started saving off killmails from zkillboard’s redis feed. The dataset is a touch under 50,000 killmails (not all killmails since burn jita, just periods I’ve saved off), but enough to still see the trend: [analysis] That’s freighter ganks (not includng war losses or killright scamming) and for a dataset of almost 18500 highsec killmails, less th… Average of 27 ships in the gank fleet (range of 12-39), and if the gank fleet is catalysts, the size of the fleet needed, to overcome the huge tank Freighters can achieve, is large. Best thing is tank a freighter, use a webbing alt and don’t overload the cargo with value. Nothing rubbish about it. ---
**Author:** ![Auto-da-fe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auto-da-fe/32/53227_2.png) [@Auto-da-fe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auto-da-fe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/72 "2018-03-19T19:13:02Z")
> [@LouHodo](#): > > Tell me what game that is? Because I am willing to say there is not ONE game out there where the community agrees the devs know what they are doing. first, I used the word “Competent” and did NOT mean to imply that there was a game with 100% player satisfaction! second, when I say “Competent developers would tweak, nerf, buff, patch until the desired gameplay was brought about” I am, in fact, referring to a very specific game company that does exactly that! third, there are 2 game companies which take this approach to their games, their games are very successful and while I would NEVER say that I was satisfied with what they do, they are ‘competent’ at what they do. CCP does NOT “tweak, nerf, buff, patch” until they achieve their desired effect, because CCP isn’t aiming at anything, they have no overall design goals, and no overall design philosophy. If there’s no “balacned, competitive PvP” in their game, they don’t care. If there’s no PVE worth a damn in their game, they don’t care! Because they have NO GOALS, as far as the gameplay is concerned, whatsoever! Their one and only goal is MONEY. And they can call the result of all their slipshod programming “Emergent Gameplay” and make tons of cash. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/73 "2018-03-19T19:47:07Z")
> [@Auto-da-fe](#): > > Their one and only goal is MONEY. And they can call the result of all their slipshod programming “Emergent Gameplay” and make tons of cash. Why are you so butthurt if you don’t play and in fact play other games? Why don’t you go shiptoast on their forums. You won’t be missed. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/74 "2018-03-19T19:48:10Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > So bumping out of sentry gun range reduces the number of catalysts required by a couple. No, it does not. Sentries have no impact at all on catas or bombers. ~~ > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Average of 27 ships in the gank fleet (range of 12-39), And you fell victim to distorted data. CODE and CFC bring too many people almost all the time to destroy a freighter. You do not need 30 Catalysts to destroy a Charon, but CODE brings them anyway. The average numbers are distorted to support arguments like yours. ~~ > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Yes, the gank ship used changes the number of characters needed, > **[Charon | Sorin Yaken | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68806853/)** > > Sorin Yaken (Just 4 Fun) lost their Charon in Uedama (The Citadel). Final Blow by Tawny Rozei (The Conference Elite) flying in a Catalyst. Total Value: 2,248,912,145.79 ISK Not the ship types do not change the number of necessary pilots. > **[Bowhead | Sixer70 | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68742644/)** > > Sixer70 (Association of Cunning Linguists) lost their Bowhead in Uedama (The Citadel). Final Blow by Charlotte Rozei (The Conference Elite) flying in a Catalyst. Total Value: 1,883,134,116.49 ISK Another example where CODE brought a lot more people than necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/75 "2018-03-19T19:52:54Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > he average numbers are distorted to support arguments like yours. The data is just the data. CODE. don’t gank in large fleets just to support me in the forum. You’re an idiot for making such a claim. > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > ship types do not change the number of necessary pilots Haha, what? Do the basic math. You’ll see the difference in the number of ships required. That Charon, like other killmails you posted isn’t tanked. It’s expanded, lowering its tank. Don’t be that guy. It’s not hard to see that isn’t an example of the level of tank achievable. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/76 "2018-03-19T19:54:00Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > The data is just the data. CODE. don’t gank in large fleets just to support me in the forum. You’re an idiot for making such a claim. No. The data needs to be interpreted correctly. And you do a poor job at doing so, in particular as all my above examples and almost all the kills in the last 3 days demonstrate. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Do the basic math. You’ll see the difference in the number of ships required. Check the kills. They speak a different language. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/77 "2018-03-19T19:55:18Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > And you fell victim to distorted data. CODE and CFC bring too many people almost all the time to destroy a freighter. You do not need 30 Catalysts to destroy a Charon, but CODE brings them anyway. The average numbers are distorted to support arguments like yours. > > ~~ If you are talking about Miniluv, they have a very high target cargo value, IIRC about 6 billion ISK. Also, Miniluv is a Goon SIG so people sign up, log in and gank. There is no limit of fleet size that I’ve heard of. And with 6 billion in cargo value (or more) that is about 100 million/pilot. Not sure how much Miniluv takes to run their operations, but even taking 50% leaves a nice bit of ISK…and I believe Miniluv hands out the gank ships or they are heavily discounted. > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Not the ship types do not change the number of necessary pilots. You are confusing what the word “necessary” means. To kill a freighter it might be necessary to bring 15, but bringing 20 or 30 often occurs because people like the activity, the loot, the interaction with others, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/78 "2018-03-19T19:56:20Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > particular as all my above examples and almost all the kills in the last 3 days demonstrate. All of which are expanded/nano’d and not even what I’m talking about in terms of tank achievable. However, one offs mean very little. They aren’t necessarily representative of anything but themselves and/or best case for the gankers. Do t be best case for the gankers. Pilots who are deserve what they get. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/79 "2018-03-19T19:58:18Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > but bringing 20 or 30 often occurs because people like the activity, Exactly, this is the thing. And I am not saying they should not participate. All I am saying is that massive numbers are not necessary to gank and bumping is not necessary to achieve ganks, which other people dispute on basis of massive numbers of pilots on kills. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > All of which are expanded/nano’d and not even what I’m talking about in terms of tank achievable. I linked a tanked freighter as well, which also had the same number of chars on it as an untanked freighter. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/80 "2018-03-19T20:06:42Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > I linked a tanked freighter as well, No you didn’t. That’s just a full of ■■■■ statement: Obelisk: 3 x cargo expanders Providence: 3 x cargo expanders Charon: 1 x intertial stabiliser Charon: 2 x inertial stabiliser, 1 x nanofiber Charon: 3 x cargo expanders Bowhead: 2 x cargo expanders, 1 x inertial stabiliser Every kill you linked is anti-tanked. The Charon with the 1 interial stabilier, also has 2 x bulkheads, but it still isn’t tanked. Intertial stabilisers reduce structural HP. ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518/81 "2018-03-19T20:08:03Z")
> **[Charon | Beth Kurai | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/68806090/)** > > Beth Kurai (School of Applied Knowledge) lost their Charon in Uedama (The Citadel). Final Blow by Sherri Rozei (The Conference Elite) flying in a Talos. Total Value: 3,090,787,058.71 ISK > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Intertial stabilisers reduce structural HP. Not, they do not. They give more sig radius. You mistake them with Nanofiber Internal Structures. And here I agree: Someone who fits Nanofiber Internal Structures to their freighter really deserves to die. This kind of daftness is really horrible. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Every kill you linked is anti-tanked. The Charon with the 1 interial stabilier, also has 2 x bulkheads, but it still isn’t tanked. WTH? If that is not tanked, what is? 🤔 1 more Bulkhead would not have made a difference. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-issues-i-have-heard-from-both-new-old/63518.md?page=5)