# High Sec Logistics Mechanic Adjustment Request/Suggestion **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Created:** [December 16, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577 "2020-12-16T21:21:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bob\_Painter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bob_painter/32/417556_2.png) [@Bob\_Painter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bob_Painter)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/81 "2020-12-19T17:55:52Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > It’s not nonsense. You guys never lose. How many times can you honestly say you took a fight that you weren’t 100% sure you would win? I do that all the time. You don’t. It’s not the gankers mindset. lmao what a take ---
**Author:** ![brainlet](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brainlet/32/420400_2.png) [@brainlet](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/brainlet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/82 "2020-12-19T18:00:56Z")
like his post has to be a joke right? CCP wouldn’t allow someone this disconnected and ignorant onto the CSM right? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/83 "2020-12-19T19:08:46Z")
> [@brainlet](#): > > You’ve done one fleet since the bumping change that effectively killed miniluv. Go ahead and ask miniluv right now what they’ve done since then, they’ll tell you that they’ve ran fewer than a dozen fleets this year outside of Kusion and myself. > > Ganking fails a lot, and you seem to not know this because you only participate in the less than monthly occurrence of nearly 100 man fleets. > > Maybe try ganking on your own while people are trying to stop you and you can actually find out how difficult it is. Piggybacking with a single dps on a fleet of a dozen other guys doing 4 to 5 roles each isn’t ganking, it’s f1 monkeying. This is like going on a harpy fleet and saying “wow harpies are unkillable and easy” because you had half a dozen good fleets in a row. At least you all are acknowledging that I’ve done it now. Thanks for that. > [@Aristotelina\_Omaristos](#): > > @Brisc_Rubal, assuming dishonesty and then responding based on that assumption is not nice. > > I don’t know how to prove to you that our effectiveness has not suffered from the logi change. Our stats are on full display on ZKB. The point really is about how social the playstyle is, and at no point have you addressed this concern. Concord is irrelevant. Suspect baiting is not ganking, as you well know. I get people asking me daily for things that are bad for the game but are good for themselves or their playstyle. When I hear something that seems a lopsided in favor of something that is already OP, and the reasoning behind it is “well, this will help me be more social,” when that’s an unlikely result to the change, I’m going to be skeptical. > [@brainlet](#): > > like his post has to be a joke right? CCP wouldn’t allow someone this disconnected and ignorant onto the CSM right? Name checks out. ---
**Author:** ![Aristotelina\_Omaristos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aristotelina_omaristos/32/341934_2.png) [@Aristotelina\_Omaristos](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aristotelina_Omaristos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/84 "2020-12-19T19:37:05Z")
> When I hear something that seems a lopsided in favor of something that is already OP, and the reasoning behind it is “well, this will help me be more social,” when that’s an unlikely result to the change, I’m going to be skeptical. @Brisc_Rubal I may be wrong, but to me this looks like bias, not skepticism. It’s one thing to have a reasonable discussion, and it’s quite a different thing to dismiss our concerns out of hand, as you seem to have done, because you have assumed dishonesty on our part. Your assumption seems to be that we are arguing to reverse the logi change as it relates to suspect-based LE because the criminalization of neutral logi hurt us. I can assure you, we have adapted quite well to the present system. We do not suffer from a lack of targets and we almost never find ourselves unable to tank. However, our community has been atomized, we are no longer able to take part in fleet fights, and we have no incentive to recruit. I’d like to ask you to at least acknowledge our concerns as valid. ---
**Author:** ![Derath\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/derath_ellecon/32/289725_2.png) [@Derath\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Derath_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/85 "2020-12-19T20:04:20Z")
> [@hellokittyonline](#): > > but our logi couldn’t come and shoot them (because they’re not suspect) That I get. I was talking about going suspect. I assume you are going suspect by stealing a wreck, or shooting an MTU. Can’t your friends shoot the MTU to go suspect and then join in? ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/86 "2020-12-19T20:14:42Z")
The non suspect would have to shoot both suspects before either could logi the other (at which point we wouldn’t bring logi, rather a second dps ship). But, this is unrealistic. It’s rare enough for someone to shoot 1 suspect much less 2 (thus committing themselves to a 2v1). I go in suspect, dude shoots me, I tackle the dude. If my friend comes in suspect and the target shoots him too then sure he could logi me but that never happens and if we were banking on it happening we would never kill anyone. This is a hard topic to explain to someone who doesnt have quite a bit of experience with the system. All you really need to know is that in any realistic situation a suspect can receive exactly 0 assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Derath\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/derath_ellecon/32/289725_2.png) [@Derath\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Derath_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/87 "2020-12-19T20:18:02Z")
Yea I mostly understand. But I don’t keep up on things so I haven’t followed the changes. I mean I’ll be open, I’m not a personal fan of suspect baiting, but it is a valid aspect to the game. That being said it seems if you can be in fleet with people in HS and do logi in a PVE environment (Incursions/invasions/missions) you should be able to be in a fleet and rep your fleetmates in PVP encounters as well. Obviously they would pick up a suspect flag in the process but it does seem arbitrarily wonky. ---
**Author:** ![Wanda\_Fayne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wanda_fayne/32/377654_2.png) [@Wanda\_Fayne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wanda_Fayne)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/88 "2020-12-19T20:27:59Z")
I could (and would) take advantage if the changes to neutral logistics were reverted or returned to non-war participants. To be fair to the argument, however, there was an inherent issue with it to begin with: -Neutral logi gains no weapons timer and could jump gate, dock, or use a maintenance bay in a ship, and escape the encounter with little risk. Entering into the fray as a neutral should entail more commitment than just a suspect timer, imho. And I’d still take advantage of it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Wanda\_Fayne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wanda_fayne/32/377654_2.png) [@Wanda\_Fayne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wanda_Fayne)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/89 "2020-12-19T20:31:40Z")
As an aside, attacking the CSM member isn’t helping your argument! Perhaps making better arguments and proposals would yield better results… ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/90 "2020-12-19T20:35:54Z")
> [@Aristotelina\_Omaristos](#): > > @Brisc_Rubal I may be wrong, but to me this looks like bias, not skepticism. It’s one thing to have a reasonable discussion, and it’s quite a different thing to dismiss our concerns out of hand, as you seem to have done, because you have assumed dishonesty on our part. > > Your assumption seems to be that we are arguing to reverse the logi change as it relates to suspect-based LE because the criminalization of neutral logi hurt us. I can assure you, we have adapted quite well to the present system. We do not suffer from a lack of targets and we almost never find ourselves unable to tank. However, our community has been atomized, we are no longer able to take part in fleet fights, and we have no incentive to recruit. > > I’d like to ask you to at least acknowledge our concerns as valid. Your concerns are valid. I simply don’t agree with you that the fix requested is going to solve your concerns. ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/91 "2020-12-19T21:07:48Z")
@Brisc_Rubal So the problem we’re discussing wasn’t a problem before the change. The problem arose BECAUSE of the change. We request that you change it back as a very clear solution to the problem and after 90 posts of arguing the best reason you can come up with is that it wouldnt solve the problem? OF COURSE IT WOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM. THATS LITERALLY THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE ARGUMENT WE’VE BEEN HAVING FOR 3 DAYS. First you say I’m lying about my intent and now you’re saying I dont know what I’m talking about in regards to the profession I’ve taken part in for 10 years. We’re discussing a part of the game that you know next to NOTHING about. We ARE the experts. You ARE NOT. You didn’t even know how the mechanics worked in the first place and now you’re going to sit here and say you have ANY CLUE how changes to those mechanics would affect the game? You dont know. We do know. You’re entire argument can be summed up as “I think you’re a bad person because you play the criminal in a video game so I’m going to nothing but ignore and shoot down your suggestions by gaslighting you and only responding to the parts of your posts that fit my narrative”. Angry carebears crying for NERFS have ruined this game and I make a post about it and the Angry Carebear CSM Spokesperson is the only one we can get to respond… You wonder why suspects dont even bother with these forums 99% of the time. [@CSM](https://forums.eveonline.com/groups/csm) could we PLEASE get a CSM member who is ACTUALLY A PVPER to respond? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/92 "2020-12-19T21:54:59Z")
I was your best hope for getting this addressed. Sorry. Next time be civil. ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/93 "2020-12-19T22:15:24Z")
And now I shoot you down so hard that you have no choice but to admit you’re wrong so instead you leave the conversation… Real high quality CSM I tell you what. ---
**Author:** ![ISD\_Dorrim\_Barstorlode](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_dorrim_barstorlode/32/361083_2.png) [@ISD\_Dorrim\_Barstorlode](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Dorrim_Barstorlode)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/94 "2020-12-19T22:19:36Z")
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**Author:** ![ISD\_Dorrim\_Barstorlode](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_dorrim_barstorlode/32/361083_2.png) [@ISD\_Dorrim\_Barstorlode](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Dorrim_Barstorlode)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-logistics-mechanic-adjustment-request-suggestion/285577/95 "2020-12-19T22:19:49Z")
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