# High sec should be.. more safe **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631 "2019-09-17T00:20:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/abruzzi_oskold/32/279259_2.png) [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Abruzzi_Oskold)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/418 "2019-09-21T16:26:29Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Nah, tax evasion is a crime, tax avoidance is having a good accountant. A case of using the letter of the law to avoid the spirit of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/419 "2019-09-21T16:28:35Z")
This is why the law clearly states that there are no exceptions. All miners must obtain a permit. James truly did think of everything. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/420 "2019-09-21T16:28:52Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Proof would be evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement; you supplied neither. I literally did. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Where do I have a comprehension issue? Exactly where you assume that the link was an additional proof. It was a mere explanation of a part that “some people” could not understand. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Disagreement != lack of understanding Thank you sherlock. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > would you care to point it out? A strawman is when someone answers to an argument by making it say something else that it meant in the first place. For example, when you are claiming that I linked the article to prove my point, even though I explicitly wrote it was for explanations of a part that was misunderstood, you are making a strawman. > [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > Hence CCP’s statement that the core design of the game is that it’s a PvP game. Indeed, that statement is still true that Eve is a PVP game. But opposing PVP to PVE makes no sense. Eve is a PVP and PVE game, they are not mutually exclusive. So when people claim it is “PVP centric”, it implies that the priority is put on the PVP part in terms of gameplay, which is actually completely false. The priority is made on the PVE part, because the PVP players could not enjoy the game without a lot of PVE players - be it to hunt them, or to use the ships they create. > [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > She was the one making a point, “Without miners, PvP could not take place, as there would be no ships.” This is fundamentally untrue. > > We can obtain frigates for FREE, from any station. Yeah sure, PVP in Eve is only going with noobships and civilian modules. Thank you for proving my point : If there was no PVE in Eve, we could only fly noobship and T1M0 modules. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/421 "2019-09-21T16:31:26Z")
Only two things are certain in life, death and taxes. One day both will catch up with me, until then screw the reaper and the revenue collectors. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/422 "2019-09-21T16:32:45Z")
> [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](#): > > sodomise the revenue collectors. Excuse me? 😳 ---
**Author:** ![Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/abruzzi_oskold/32/279259_2.png) [@Abruzzi\_Oskold](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Abruzzi_Oskold)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/423 "2019-09-21T16:33:37Z")
Figure of speech, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/424 "2019-09-21T16:34:20Z")
If you’re nice I do use lube. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/425 "2019-09-21T16:38:19Z")
there’s only one brand that is suited for him. ![](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41L%2BU9FlU3L._SY355_.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/426 "2019-09-21T16:42:56Z")
This is sexual harassment and I don’t have to take your abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/427 "2019-09-21T16:46:44Z")
Whatever floats your boat dearie, personally that’s a big fat nope. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/428 "2019-09-21T20:02:05Z")
> [@Harabec\_Ojutai](#): > > I still have trouble understanding why having a difference of opinion leads to so much salt and acrimony. That’s because you’re missing the point and the context. 😉 This is not about whether EvE is a PvP-centric game or not, it’s about the _implications_. Understanding what CCP intends the game to be is useful in understanding why things like suicide ganking are an integral part of the game _by design_, and why there is nothing wrong with the players that play the game that way or with the game allowing it the way it does. When someone posts in a thread like this asking for suicide ganking to be nerfed and high sec to be safer, you may do several things about it. What I always do is try to help players understand what the game is about (as stated by CCP themselves), so those players realise their time would be much better spent learning to properly play the game in general and how to avoid being suicide ganked in particular, instead of making wrong assumptions and whining about high sec not being as safe as they think it should be. There are other players, however, that prefer to keep whining and pushing for nerfs to suicide ganking one or two steps at a time, so when you bring up CCP stance on the matter, they need to disqualify it so it doesn’t stand in their way. And that’s where the heat comes from. > [@Harabec\_Ojutai](#): > > I don’t, however, think that EvE is–or should be–entirely combat oriented. Nobody does. That’s not the issue at all. > [@Harabec\_Ojutai](#): > > My interpretation of what @Anderson_Geten is arguing is that **PvP combat** wouldn’t exist without the PvE parts of the game. The game as we know it would simply not exist without the PvE part, it would be something else. But that’s not really the issue. Using this kind of arguments to try to prove whether EvE is PvP-centric or PvE-centric is silly because the same could be said about the other part too, i.e. without PvP the PvE part would lose its meaning and the game would simply not exist as we know it either. So you cannot really use an argument like this to prove things are one way or another. Why would an honest person use an argument like this to try to “prove” things are one way but then completely ignore the same could be done to “prove” the exact opposite? But again, that’s not the issue. Your interpretation of what she’s arguing is an oversimplification. > [@Harabec\_Ojutai](#): > > Anyway, I’m not sure where I was going with this but to say that (1) yeah, the game is PvP-centric and (2) PvP-centric doesn’t necessarily mean all combat all the time and (3) to remain on topic, Hisec is plenty safe if you take steps to mitigate what little danger remains. Agreed. That’s exactly my stance on the matter too, including the “not sure where you were going” part. 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/429 "2019-09-21T20:29:21Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > But again, that’s not the issue. Your interpretation of what she’s arguing is an oversimplification. Actually that’s the only issue. All I was arguing against is people claiming that the game is PVP centric BECAUSE CCP said it was PVP at its core some 10years ago, while the actions of CCP have showed they intend to make it a game where PVE is the base for PVP (both as “leads to” and as “is required to”), by adding more PVE activities and less PVP activity (besides abyssal PVP there was none). As I wrote [before](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/115), this whole “safety” issue is IMO a big nothing because people don’t define what IS safety correctly. So I don’t care about the implications of your affirmations. All I care about is, that those affirmations are wrong, and the only reason you affirm them is because you want to censor people with a different opinion, even if this means you are using strawman, stupidities, personal aggressions, all the arsenal of the internet troll. Because you actually don’t care about the discussion, you don’t care about other people’s opinion, you are just a self-centered crybaby whining on the forum that the reality does not fit his vision. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/430 "2019-09-21T21:36:41Z")
I must say that you are schooling this poor misguided chap very well,. keep up the good work. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/431 "2019-09-21T21:42:44Z")
@ISD_Dorrim_Barstorlode hey friend, can something be done about flag abuse? It’s creating a toxic environment and I imagine a lot of extraneous work for you guys. ---
**Author:** ![Milto\_Farroads](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/milto_farroads/32/145201_2.png) [@Milto\_Farroads](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Milto_Farroads)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/432 "2019-09-21T22:47:59Z")
Loots from high sec ganks should be confiscated by CONCORD and sold at an auction ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/433 "2019-09-21T22:52:28Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > BTW You have other people that explain the same thing that you are not able to realize by yourself > > […] > > TLDR : you are wrong when claiming Eve is a PVP centric game. TLDR: That article is wrong too. It uses other PvP games to “prove” EvE isn’t a PvP game just because the PvP in EvE is different, but then does not take into consideration at all how PvE works in PvE games when claiming EvE is a PvE game. It also claims things @Anderson_Geten claims here, e.g.: > If one wants to make ISK in EVE, aside from using one’s credit card to buy PLEX to sell on the market, a player has to PVE. which are plain wrong. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Except you just affirm things without any basis. Such as? Oh wait, it’s not that I do that, it’s that you’re gonna lie about it again, right? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You literally made a strawman when claiming my opinion assumed you did not like Eve or wanted it to be something else here > > > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > > > I don’t want to make EvE anything. If I didn’t like EvE or wanted it to be something else, I’d simply go play some other game I liked more instead. Yeah, as expected. You don’t see the problem of me not saying anything there about your opinion on anything, nor me claiming you had asked me that either, which you were falsely claiming in previous posts I had done, do you? But of course, you’re gonna completely dodge that little problem, or if you don’t, you’re gonna play word games around it, and pretend it’s _me_ who “go on strawman, can’t accept that what he wrote is actually completely stupid, goes all aggressive, and then affirms that him being wrong means he is right”, eh? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > A strawman is when someone answers to an argument by making it say something else that it meant in the first place. > For example, when you are claiming that I linked the article to prove my point, even though I explicitly wrote it was for explanations of a part that was misunderstood, you are making a strawman. ROFLMAO. Turns out @Anderson_Geten, which accuses others of strawman all the time, and made a big deal of me making a mistake I immediately acknowledged, calling me stupid and whatnot for that, doesn’t know what a strawman is. Now this is hilarious. I’m gonna bookmark this for posterity. 🤣 🤣 🤣 > **[Straw man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)** > > A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man". > The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequ... > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > So when people claim it is “PVP centric”, it implies that the priority is put on the PVP part in terms of gameplay I can’t speak for others, but that’s **not** what I imply. I’m using the “PvP-centric” term as a shortcut for the slightly longer “essentially a PvP game at its core”, which is how CCP describes it, because, unlike you, I don’t pretend to know better than CCP what EvE is, or is intended to be, or isn’t, so whatever “PvP-centric” means to you, if it doesn’t fit well with the way CCP describe it themselves, that’s not what I mean _in this context_. I don’t interpret “essentially a PvP game at its core” as implying anything about where the priority is placed in terms of gameplay, whatever that means, but rather that PvP is pervasive to everything in EvE, that all the other aspects of the game are developed with the PvP aspect of the game in mind (even abyss, hence the abyssal traces), and hence that players should not expect to be able to ignore the PvP aspect of the game while doing other things. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Actually that’s the only issue. > All I was arguing against is people claiming that the game is PVP centric BECAUSE CCP said it was PVP at its core some 10years ago Except that’s _another_ issue **different** from merely stating that some aspect of the game (be it PvP or PvE) wouldn’t exist without the other, which is what I said was not the issue in the post you replied to here… CCP’s stance on this matter is precisely what makes the difference in determining whether EvE is PvP-centric or PvE-centric, because without that you cannot (at least I wouldn’t) claim EvE is one or the other. That CCP made that statement 10 years ago does not invalidate it in any way, nor does the fact that CCP has kept adding PvE content during all this time, and I already explained why that’s the case. Now, if some CCP representative stated something to the contrary, or if they had done something like introducing the abyss sites without having included those pesky abyssal traces, then I would look at it differently, but so far that hasn’t been the case… > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > All I care about is, that those affirmations are wrong, and the only reason you affirm them is because you want to censor people with a different opinion LOL. Says the person that trolls every thread in which she participates, plays word games, claims people said things they never said, does all the things she _falsely_ accuses others of doing… **AND on top of that, flags every post she doesn’t like** , even though the only thing that could be considered “inappropriate” about those posts is talking to her the same way she does to others all the time in every thread where she participates… 🤣 > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > you are using strawman, stupidities, personal aggressions, all the arsenal of the internet troll. Because you actually don’t care about the discussion, you don’t care about other people’s opinion, you are just a self-centered crybaby whining on the forum that the reality does not fit his vision. > **[Psychological projection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)** > > Psychological projection is a defence mechanism of alterity concerning "inside" content mistaken to be coming from the "outside" Other. It forms the basis of empathy by the projection of personal experiences to understand someone else's subjective world. In its malignant forms, it is a defense mechanism in which the ego defends itself against disowned and highly negative parts of the self by denying their existence in themselves and attributing them to others, breeding misunderstanding and A pro... ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Marconi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_marconi/32/150029_2.png) [@Mark\_Marconi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Marconi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/434 "2019-09-21T22:54:21Z")
I agree. Some of the children are using it to silence people. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/435 "2019-09-21T23:01:39Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > doesn’t know what a strawman is funny thing is, my definition and the one you quoted actually are very close - to not say define the same thing. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > That CCP made that statement 10 years ago does not invalidate it in any way, No it does not invalidate it when it was expressed. It does invalidate however the idea that this statement still stands. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > LOL. Says the person that trolls every thread in which she participates, plays word games, claims people said things they never said, does all the things she _falsely_ accuses others of doing… Lol. insults, insults. And then you don’t understand why your posts are “inappropriate”. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/436 "2019-09-21T23:36:46Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > funny thing is, my definition and the one you quoted actually are very close - to not say define the same thing. No, they are not even close, but what’s really funny is that after all the things you’ve told others, and the big deal you made of it in this very thread, now you’re gonna try to make it look like you knew what you were talking about all this time… 🤣 > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It does invalidate however the idea that this statement still stands. Again, because you say so. You’ve decided that 10 years is too much for it to remain valid and that’s all we should care about. The fact that CCP hasn’t stated anything that would support your claim doesn’t matter. Actually, wait, I had assumed all this time that this 10 years thing was correct, but I didn’t really know nor did I check myself, so seeing how @Anderson_Geten lies all the time and has proven to not know what he’s talking about multiple times already, I figured I might as well check myself. Guess what I found at the end of the [New Pilot FAQ](https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/pdf/EVE-Online-New-Pilot-FAQ.pdf) ? > ©2013 CCP hf. All rights reserved. “EVE Online”, “EVE” and the CCP logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of CCP hf. > Version E2 Jan 14, 2014 Who would have guessed? Looks like CCP updated that FAQ in 2014, but apparently forgot to ask @Anderson_Geten what should they put there instead of that PvP-centric stuff… > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Lol. insults, insults. In _your_ posts you mean? Are you flagging my posts for quoting the insults you make in _yours_? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > And then you don’t understand why your posts are “inappropriate”. Oh, we all understand very well. You obviously cannot stand being proven wrong and being talked to the same way you talk to others all the time… ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/437 "2019-09-21T23:38:02Z")
@ISD_Dorrim_Barstorlode > [@Xuixien](#): > > hey friend, can something be done about flag abuse? It’s creating a toxic environment and I imagine a lot of extraneous work for you guys. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631.md?page=20) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631.md?page=22)