# Hmm... losing SP with pods **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [September 25, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273 "2018-09-25T22:47:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![March\_rabbit](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/march_rabbit/32/453160_2.png) [@March\_rabbit](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/March_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 9:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/41 "2018-09-27T09:13:04Z")
> [@Bjorn\_Tyrson](#): > > SP loss for pods was scrapped because it _measurably_ made people more risk averse. Still i’m curious about numbers. Is there any sign that removal of clone upgrades increased PvP activity? I would accept even anecdotal evidences. > [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > And again… if you look at it, most of your subcaps really wouldn’t get punished all that hard. You wouldn’t be going into FW and whelping T1 frigates all night, so I can see why most FW people would be against this. Yes, it is simple and very understandable. What i’m interested in are real results of this change. Just to be clear: there were people who said “PvP-averse players will always find a reason to not do PvP”. Were they right? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 9:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/42 "2018-09-27T09:14:15Z")
> [@March\_rabbit](#): > > Still i’m curious about numbers. Is there any sign that removal of clone upgrades increased PvP activity? I would accept even anecdotal evidences. CCP reported some measurable uptake at the time. I can’t provide quotes as that was old forums and a laptop ago. ---
**Author:** ![Bjorn\_Tyrson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bjorn_tyrson/32/371958_2.png) [@Bjorn\_Tyrson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bjorn_Tyrson)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/43 "2018-09-27T14:13:45Z")
Having been around at the time of the change. I can tell you without a doubt that it led to an increase in PvP. It’s true, PvP averse players are always going to be PvP averse. But prior to the changes, even people who would otherwise throw themselves into it where much more cautious. Newer players especially where even more cautious Since the cost of clone upgrades, and the price of forgetting was just one more barrier to entry. NPSI or “just for fun we aint coming back alive” fleets where rare. It also pushed older players into bigger and more expensive ships. Since the cost of clone upgrades could stack up quickly. Why fly a frigate when your clone alone costs as much as a cruiser every time you pop? (Yes you have elite pvpers using stupid expensive implants in frigates. But those give an actual edge in combat) ---
**Author:** ![Charley\_Varrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charley_varrick/32/134094_2.png) [@Charley\_Varrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charley_Varrick)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/44 "2018-09-27T14:53:58Z")
This is another reason why suicide ganking has run rampant. Clone cost, risk of skill point loss as well as ship cost were all deterrents. Now all there is is ship cost…which considering gankers have stacks of ships ready to go…I say bring it back. ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/45 "2018-09-27T15:09:11Z")
there’s no evidence for your claim. last time we saw statistics, months ago, it was clear th\ **Author:** ![Keno\_Skir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keno_skir/32/460582_2.png) [@Keno\_Skir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keno_Skir)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/46 "2018-09-27T15:11:55Z") > [@March\_rabbit](#): > > Is there any sign that removal of clone upgrades increased PvP activity? **I would accept even anecdotal evidences.** Ok. I heard it increased PvP activity by over 9000. ---
**Author:** ![Charley\_Varrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charley_varrick/32/134094_2.png) [@Charley\_Varrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charley_Varrick)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/47 "2018-09-27T15:17:23Z")
So I need to prove it? To who? You? a ganker who will will not listen no matter what proof I post? Not gonna waste my time. I have already spoken to CCP with my wallet. And, Judging by the ever dwindling player base I’d say a lot of others have too. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/48 "2018-09-27T15:21:47Z")
> [@Charley\_Varrick](#): > > So I need to prove it? To who? yes you need, otherwise it is just lies. And, to the same people you are writing that post for, and even better, to yourself, so you stop confusing “what I like to think” with “what is true”. You know, the basis of a discussion. When you say ■■■■, the people you are talking to tell you what it is. And, whoever is the person you are talking to, your arguments should always be the same. I never suicide ganked someone in HS yet I feel insulted by your discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Charley\_Varrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charley_varrick/32/134094_2.png) [@Charley\_Varrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charley_Varrick)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/49 "2018-09-27T15:28:10Z")
So your saying suicide ganking combined with ship cost and risk of skill point loss wasn’t a deterrent to ganking back then? Prove it or it’s all lies. You want proof ganking has run rampant… that’s easy. Just go back and read the forums for the last year. Every other topic is related to ganking. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/50 "2018-09-27T15:32:33Z")
no, I am not saying anything besides “if you don’t have evidence then your affirmation is false”. eg. you affirmed that ganking has increased, without any evidence this affirmation is false. The forum activity are not a proof of anything. For a lot of reasons, especially there is no count of the ganks on those forums. ---
**Author:** ![Charley\_Varrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charley_varrick/32/134094_2.png) [@Charley\_Varrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charley_Varrick)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/51 "2018-09-27T15:41:46Z")
I said what I came here to say. Like I said, I spoke to CCP with my wallet. Aside from that, I don’t have to prove anything to anyone and I don’t care if you believe it or not. Feel free to prove I was wrong though. Make sure there is “evidence”! ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/52 "2018-09-27T16:03:03Z")
What a stupid, weak troll full of bitterness and hate you are. ---
**Author:** ![Charley\_Varrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charley_varrick/32/134094_2.png) [@Charley\_Varrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charley_Varrick)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/53 "2018-09-27T16:23:24Z")
Any yet I managed to say what I wanted without insults…who’s bitter? ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/54 "2018-09-27T16:32:47Z")
US American logic. 🙄 You’re a passive aggressive loser. vOv Bye! 😊 ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/55 "2018-09-27T16:44:47Z")
> [@Charley\_Varrick](#): > > Feel free to prove I was wrong though. Make sure there is “evidence”! here it is : > **[Hitchens's razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor)** > > Hitchens's razor is an epistemological razor that serves as a general rule for rejecting certain knowledge claims. It states "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." The razor was created by and named after author and journalist Christopher Hitchens (1949–2011). It implies that the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents n The dict... You have no proof of what you affirm, so your affirmation is false. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![Balos\_Tritapo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/balos_tritapo/32/89875_2.png) [@Balos\_Tritapo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Balos_Tritapo)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/56 "2018-09-27T16:47:54Z")
No… Go away… And every suicide ganking attemp should be fined with 100 million ISK on every char the player has… ---
**Author:** ![Charley\_Varrick](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charley_varrick/32/134094_2.png) [@Charley\_Varrick](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charley_Varrick)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/57 "2018-09-27T16:52:04Z")
You are assuming I care about proving what I said…You are mistaken. You guys are the ones throwing insults, calling me bitter and insulting what you think is my home country…I obviously struck a nerve. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/58 "2018-09-27T17:17:18Z")
If you did not care you would not post here. Who are you trying to fool ? yourself ? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/59 "2018-09-28T05:48:04Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > It will absolutely lead to risk aversion. > [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > And yet, it can be avoided. Indeed it can be avoided…by taking less risks. Is that what you want? Less risk taking? There is a name for that it is called _risk aversion_. Which is usually a derogatory term on these forums. “Oh you are risk averse” (usually said by an ignoramus who does not understand risk). > [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > That said… consider losing a Titan. It’s no small loss, right? They still get dropped, killed, etc. You don’t see them dropped on everything (outside of Delve at least) which is good. They’re supposed to be your most critical asset. The highest risk in the game is only JUST enough to keep them from becoming insanely prolific. Yes…as Nevyn points out this is called risk aversion. I’m not saying no, I am just pointing out that you are advocating for a behavior that most people on this forum sneer at. > [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > The goal here is to prevent anyone from getting into a capital, but rather, making it difficult to get **back** into a capital. All these nullsov fights we had. North VS Goons. Capitals. Everywhere. Presumably there is a “not” in there, as in “The goal hre is _not_ to prevent anyone from getting into a capital…” Again, that issue with getting back into said capital will make players less eager to get into that capital and drop it. > [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > But there’s too many, too often. If it’ll take you a month to get back into your cap, 3 months to get back into your supercarrier, and a year to get back into your Titan… that loss becomes a LOT more significant. Yes…and people refraining from using them will mean they’ll be more risk averse. You’ll kill less of them and you’ll still have them sitting around and only being used when one side is double damn sure they can win and lose very few. ---
**Author:** ![Agondray](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/agondray/32/414989_2.png) [@Agondray](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Agondray)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 7:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273/60 "2018-09-28T07:29:33Z")
i could see this causing a spike in ganking on every ship they could gank just to screw with your skills. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/hmm-losing-sp-with-pods/109273.md?page=4)