# How can we best educate new players? **URL:** \ **Category:** Crime & Punishment\ **Created:** [September 15, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109 "2022-09-15T18:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 12:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/141 "2022-09-19T12:23:25Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Ganking takes practically no effort. Says he who knows nothing about ganking ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 12:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/143 "2022-09-19T12:36:09Z")
> [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > Says he who knows nothing about ganking He knows nothing about ganking, but admitted to griefing newbs for salt in the Megathread. This is a factual statement devoid of judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Mo\_rane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bob_mo_rane/32/333433_2.png) [@Bob\_Mo\_rane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bob_Mo_rane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/145 "2022-09-19T12:47:42Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > but in what way is it playing well? Let me guess, now you’re going to say that ganking is easy… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Ganking takes practically no effort. People who shoot rocks with lasers all day put in more effort than gankers do That’s what I thought. 😅 It’s _so_ easy that the miners can only cry about it instead of getting payback. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You don’t need the “inside scoop” it was pretty widely disussed Discussed by gankers who state that their only goal is gank players to collect tears… I don’t think so. They might say it only because it’s funny, and it is when the one getting ganked acts like a 5yo. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Yes, it’s a sport where the goal is to harass people until they react negatively Bad behavior isn’t dependent on someone’s actions or words unless it’s Life or Death. Gankers only the play the game as it’s supposed to be played. Some players shoot at rocks, other players like to shoot at ships, it’s a choice that the sandbox gives. It’s not a conspiracy to make players cry. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You say they’re always false yet you offer no reason for me to accept that If you cannot even acknowledge that generalities are always false then we’re both wasting our time in this theead. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > your narrative There is: Narrative. That tells me you are not willing to even look at the other side. Your brain is stuck on the same record skipping on “gankers griefing” over and over until you yourself believe it. Well, if it pleases you to be frustrated with the REALITY of what EVE is who am I to change that. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s the gankers fault if they are deliberately targeting _the player_ and not _the character_ though So before each gank the gankers needs to send a private message with the disclaimer: " Dude, I’m only attacking your game character, cool?" 🤣 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > with the intent of winding _the player_ u Who cares what they intent if you don’t let it bother you? Right now some ganker is reading your posts and having the time of his life… because I know I am. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > shill alts like you Are you getting mad? 🤣 Don’t be mad, I’m not your enemy, I’m just posting what I feel and think… Unless that too is griefing in your book? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Gankers engage in bad behaviour all the time, deliberately harassing their targets, and CCP allow it Do you take pills for paranoia? I’m not downing on people who need them but you may need them as well. You’re full of conspiracy theories. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Hell, try coming on the forum and disagreeing with gankers and you’ll get bombarded with personal attacks So far It’s YOU I see lobbing personal attacks. Hell, you’re attacking me calling me a “shill alt” just because I disagree with you so stop it with the victim act. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > So do CCP, hence their statements that they intend to reduce ganking and make highsec PvP more equitable “Equitable” can be understood in many ways. It doesn’t mean you’ll like the results and again, statements are a dime a dozen. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Normal people don’t find harassment funny though So a blog is harassment ? WOW. Good thing you’re not in charge of anything, It’d be a tyranny within 2 months. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It is a game, and thus griefing actual players should be banned just like in most other games I agree, except that ganking is not griefing. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/146 "2022-09-19T12:55:23Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > > > He knows nothing about ganking, but admitted to griefing newbs for salt in the Megathread. > > > > This is a factual statement devoid of judgement. > > No it’s not, it’s an outright lie Let me introduce you, to yourself: > [@Nerf Ganking Megathread](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/nerf-ganking-megathread/299004/8462): > > I have had direct involvement in ganking, solo, multibox and fleet. I’ve even had a character that used to join in the popping new players > [@Nerf Ganking Megathread](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/nerf-ganking-megathread/299004/8482): > > > [@Nerf Ganking Megathread](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/nerf-ganking-megathread/299004/8474): > > > > Did I read that right @Lucas_Kell that you took part in griefing new players? > > > > That is not cool. That has never been ok. > > To some extent that current gankers still actively grief new players, yes I did. I am not the liar here. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 12:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/147 "2022-09-19T12:57:03Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > When EVE finally dies I’m free Why wait , here it is ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/b/e/d/bedb9557ed3bbd6a54c7228f4fe1cfb66373a662.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/148 "2022-09-19T12:58:59Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Being a “PvP game” does not mean that combat PvP is always there. It just means that every aspect of the game is competitive or cooperative in some way. You’re the same guy who demanded on another thread that PvP was _only_ combat PvP…and who argued _against_ there being any other kind of PvP. You change your spots every 5 minutes…depending on which way the wind is blowing. Doesn’t matter how many times you contradict yourself, as long as you can spin some temporary narrative in which you are ‘right’. To me that is the very definition of a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/149 "2022-09-19T13:03:57Z")
> [@Nerf Ganking Megathread](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/nerf-ganking-megathread/299004/8462): > > I’ve even had a character that used to join in the popping new players Shame on you ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 1:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/151 "2022-09-19T13:05:55Z")
Look who’s creating a new storm again with himself at the very center. Why not post something on topic, like how to better educate new players ? So far your contributions on topic have been zero. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 1:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/156 "2022-09-19T13:22:31Z")
Again wildly off topic. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Because that’s not the actual topic. Conspiracy Monday ? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > as soon as anyone says something negative about ganking that’s exactly what you came here to do, in a thread about educating new players. I understand you feel quite passionate about changing the game to your personal views. I strongly suggest you make your own soapbox thread with your favorite topic, and you may rest assured that it will stay on topic. Tell us about how you helped new players, how that could be improved, or even implemented into the game ? The thread is not about you educating ccp or banging drums at them to change the game. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/158 "2022-09-19T13:34:32Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’ve explained my position. Let’s be brief and to the point. So the answer to the question about your personal contributions to new player education is “nothing in game” ? And you have no views on how to educate new players “in game” ? Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wes_wyhunnan/32/409400_2.png) [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wes_Wyhunnan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/160 "2022-09-19T13:50:29Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > and shill alts like you try to justify it. Will you please talk to @Dracvlad about that? He’s been calling them “ganker shrills” forever and refused to acknowledge he just had the wrong word. Thank you for using the correct word. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/161 "2022-09-19T14:03:46Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’ve stated some of my views > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > No, that’s not true. That’s why ganking is called non-consensual PvP. > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > Incorrect. > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > Nope, you are wrong. > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > n what way is it important for a bunch of gankers to be able to circlejerk about how they think ganking should be jammed into everything > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > You are incorrect. > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > That certainly is an opinion some people hold, yes. > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > Nope. > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > When EVE finally dies I’m free, so gankers should continue ganking new players at unprecedented rates. > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > ganking does have a negative impact on player retention > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > ganking isn’t even really a combat PvP playstyle > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > No the issue is with ganking. > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > I think it’s a crappy playstyle > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > EVE is only PvP in the sense that your actions impact other players, Please point the reader in the right direction of your thread contributions as to “How can we best educate new players?”. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/164 "2022-09-19T14:17:24Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Whether you accept it or not ganking does have a negative impact on player retention Fact is, some people are a rage quit just waiting to happen. If it’s not one reason, it will be another. You rattle on as if ganking were THE major bottleneck , when it is far from being the only one and is certainly not one of the major ones. Eve is a hard game to get to grips with, and for all noobs there comes the realisation that it will take time. A _lot_ of time. Those who join Eve expecting to rule the entire universe within a week are no doubt sorely disappointed to find they can barely rule a crappy mining Venture within that time. Then there’s the steep learning curve, and actually being bothered and incentivised to go for it. Could being ganked be the ‘last straw’ ? Possibly…but if it is then that person has _already_ failed at Eve, because Eve requires a level of motivation that _won’t_ be put off by a single trivial noob ship loss. That is the point you keep missing. Eve is a test. Most of what you are being tested for…you have to have before you ever even sign up. If you don’t have it on first undocking…it is already too late to acquire it. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Kell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucas_kell/32/393556_2.png) [@Lucas\_Kell](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucas_Kell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/165 "2022-09-19T14:26:55Z")
(post deleted by author) ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/166 "2022-09-19T14:49:53Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure, but that doesn’t mean we ignore a known reason. That’s like saying “We know smoking causes cancer, but so do a bunch of things so let’s do nothing to reduce smoking”. Oh gawd…seriously ? You’re so desperate for a contrived metaphor that you have to bring smoking into it ? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s a major contributor, and it’s one of the more popular reasons people give for not wanting to try the game. If it was a major contributor then you’d have the evidence to support that claim. Instead you rather deceptively tried to argue that because the griefer vs ganker presentation presented each as half the screen therefore each was half the problem. In fact, nothing in the presentation related ‘how much’ portion each was. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > No it’s not, it’s a form of entertainment Every form of entertainment in the manner of a game has specific rules and requirements and level of mastery to play. I gave up on the new Doom ( the only game I have ever given up on ) because I found the playstyle to damned awkward. I did not write to the developer and ask them to make the game easier for me. Not every game is for everyone. I excel at Skyrim, and in strategy games like Rome : Total War. But you don’t want to board a plane with me on Flight Sim. A lot of Eve noobs are simply going to fall away quite naturally. Being ganked early on is a great test of resolve…in a game that is ultimately all about survival. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > “I play EVE therefore I have some innate superior trait”. Not hurling the PC out of the window over the loss of 2 pence worth of Venture is a good trait to have. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/170 "2022-09-19T15:10:21Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You claimed that you are being tested for a trait that you have before you even start the game. This comes from a long running lie that EVE requires some superior trait that players of other games don’t possess. So what makes EvE’s learning curve so famous ? The "unintuitive UI " you say ? smh ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/172 "2022-09-19T15:20:51Z")
Call it what you will, it’s there, and it’s quite different from other games, whatever Lucas says. So the topic of this thread is about shaving off some of the sharp edges of that learning curve, something he denies even exist. Keep telling yourself ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/4/c/b/4cba76d4c5dfed42e91b76fd7343236841b1fb1f.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/173 "2022-09-19T15:21:35Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure, but developers will want to cater to as many people as possible particularly when they’re losing players. They certainly won’t do well if they just ignore why people are leaving the game. Again and again you deviously use post hoc ‘reasoning’. In any logical argument you have to establish that ‘A’ is actually true before you can argue ‘A therefore B’. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > In reality EVE is one of the easiest games on the market and requires practically no player ability. See, this is where you excel at what is known as **Kettle Logic**. Constant use of mutually contradictory arguments. One minute, Eve is so deperately hard for noobs and the merest gank is driving them off…then the next minute Eve is so easy a 5 year old could play it in their sleep, in which case avoiding being ganked is really easy. **Kettle logic** (_la logique du chaudron_ _in the original French) is a [rhetorical device](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device) wherein one uses multiple arguments to defend a point, but the arguments are inconsistent with each other._ > **[Kettle logic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettle_logic)** > > Kettle logic (French: la logique du chaudron) is a rhetorical device wherein one uses multiple arguments to defend a point, but the arguments are inconsistent with each other. > Jacques Derrida uses this expression in reference to the humorous "kettle-story" related by Sigmund Freud in The Interpretation of Dreams (1900) and Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious (1905). > The name logique du chaudron comes from Jacques Derrida from an example used by Sigmund Freud for the analysis of "Irma's ... ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/178 "2022-09-19T15:38:54Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I like how every single example you’ve given of me being contradictory has just been a comprehension issue on your part. No…I am far from being the only person to have pointed out the sheer extent and frequency with which you contradict yourself. There are numerous examples, pointed out by quite a few others as well. Carl Sagan famously coined the phrase ‘belief, in search of evidence’. It is where a person has already made up their mind that a particular thing is true, and they gather together all manner of often contradictory ‘evidence’ for it. They are often the last person to see just how contradictory all their ‘supporting’ stances are. ---
**Author:** ![ISD\_Bahamut](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_bahamut/32/411846_2.png) [@ISD\_Bahamut](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Bahamut)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-can-we-best-educate-new-players/377109/182 "2022-09-19T16:36:46Z")
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