# How to defend against people who hunt miners? **URL:** \ **Category:** PvP Ships & Modules\ **Created:** [November 25, 2024, 8:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217 "2024-11-25T08:10:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/90 "2024-11-28T09:09:21Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Just another reason to remove that concept. So what’s your suggestion for Black Ops? ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/91 "2024-11-28T09:09:24Z")
If you’re not moving them or adding more systems that won’t help the congestion. We need more space not just to reclass systems. Ccp has shown with the fw changes they know how to concentrate players. Before this i was honestly normally against making more space as it had the risk of just universally diluting players. That would be very bad. There needs to be largely worthless areas and others that are particularly valuable for this to work. And it doesn’t just need to be resources. Jf systems, jita proximity, missions. Can all be used to make systems more desirable to base out of than others ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/92 "2024-11-28T09:10:07Z")
> [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](#): > > We need more space not just to reclass systems. Don’t we need more players? ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/93 "2024-11-28T09:13:15Z")
This just reads like someone who’s never really done it. Blops has become to safe, but that’s because you used to always have the risk of a counter drop, now it’s very easy to avoid that drop. If you’re worried that every new toon could be a cyno then that’s another sign of just inexperience. Again unless I’m in an area with a know group operating i go weeks in ls without seeing a cyno. They just aren’t that big of a worry. They are also the only thing that adds any risk to a lot of activities. Especially the ones that are often botted. As it’s very easy to see that 15 bc gang coming from several jumps away. ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/94 "2024-11-28T09:16:35Z")
That’s what i meant about universal dilution of players. The Amarr situation is again a good example. Where players naturally concentrated to caldari and dispersed from Amarr. Or went to gal or minm space that were less crowded than caldari but more convenient than Amarr. This was done by removing rather than adding systems just by changing gate networks. And that same method could be done to help ls but wouldn’t really help null. Combining both a change in gates and adding more systems would give the best result. Edit Eve has a long history of trying to make things harder on large/orgized groups. Each time this has always hurt small or disorganized groups harder than the big ones. Changes need to be made that help the little guy but are largely unimpactful to new groups. More space won’t really help the big groups. But it will make it harder for the existing groups to hold all of it like they do now. But again it needs to be done with thought and planning. Just plopping down 4 new regions could make things worse rather than better ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/95 "2024-11-28T09:19:50Z")
> [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > So what’s your suggestion for Black Ops? Make them a force that can be used in small hitsquads bypass enemy lines, camps, fleets and roadblocks to hit deep in enemy terretory. Basically NullsecEmpire Warfare, used by Large Groups to disrupt other Large Groups heartland operations. They use the Cynos and Cloaks to _infil_ and _exfil_ out of an hostile area, they can bypass cynojammers for example. But not to jump right on top of a smallgang fight to end it in a massacre instantly. They would still need to bring in (bridge) Smaller Ships to successfully tackle stuff or to set up a camp in the midst of hostile space, Reinforce a strategic target structure to create a timer and get away before the locals can muster a defense, assist or thirdparty a larger fight (but not instant, so small- fastmoving gangs would be mostly unaffected). ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/96 "2024-11-28T09:21:52Z")
> [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](#): > > This just reads like someone who’s never really done it. I have the Redeemer on Mastery V for many years. I never used it because it’s a cowardly, boring and game-hurting activity. I flew with some BO gangs as Legion-Logi, but really, 100% of them were 100% safe curbstomps. Not once anyting happened that was even remotely close to be called a “fight”. EVE simply doesn’t need this type of Hotdropping gameplay. It makes EVE a worse game. ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/97 "2024-11-28T09:22:12Z")
This is again just unrealistic with how eve works. You have to hit fast and hard especially in null. You have seconds from appearing on Intel to everyone you threaten being docked up until you are gone. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/98 "2024-11-28T09:23:18Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Make them a force that can be used in small hitsquads bypass enemy lines, camps, fleets and roadblocks to hit deep in enemy terretory. Like giving them a self-contained jump drive with limited range (no cyno required), that appears randomly in the destination system. Something like that? ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/99 "2024-11-28T09:25:23Z")
They’d never catch anything just randomly appearing in system. Bots are set to start docking the second a neutral appears in local. For instance you generally have 30s to locate warp and land on grid to catch an Ishtar rating. Against an actual player you may have 45-50s Miners you have a little longer but they can often be harder to locate ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/100 "2024-11-28T09:26:47Z")
So who’s doing all the boting? Surely they have an idea… ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/101 "2024-11-28T09:27:47Z")
You’re not going to find any major null block that doesn’t have any bots. Right now the biggest is probably frat. You’ll find their bots all over null and in fw ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/102 "2024-11-28T09:28:15Z")
> [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](#): > > This is again just unrealistic with how eve works. You have to hit fast and hard especially in null. You have seconds from appearing on Intel to everyone you threaten being docked up until you are gone. That is _exactly_ the reason _ALL_ instatravel has to be nerfed. Because _then_ you had time to do an a operation and if the opponent wants to engage you, he had to _form up_ and _travel_ to you instead of just sending his own cynoship and drop the stagingblob on you. It is explicitly _not_ the goal to “catch a ratting Ishtar that might warp off because it’s a bot”. That is _exactly_ what we are talking about. The current game of Cynowarfare is _■■■■_ on all fronts and it can only get _better_ if cynos are nerfed harsly on all fronts to take away all that instadropping and instatcounterdropping. Moving fleets can be reported, avoided, trapped, ambushed. There is room for error, for mistakes, for third parties watching what is happening and deciding to jump in. As already said: I actually have _played the game_ when Cynos weren’t a thing. Nobody had BlackOps skilled, Capitals couldn’t hit Subcap gangs, There were basically no Titans in Lowsec. And guess what: It was a nearly _perfect gameplay environment_ that attracted 30k more players than today. I can understand that all those who farm cheap kills with their BOs will cry bitter tears, but I simply don’t care. If they want fights, go _earn_ them. By moving out and _stop hotdropping_. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/103 "2024-11-28T09:30:25Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > As already said: I actually have _played the game_ when Cynos weren’t a thing. Would be interesting if cynos went away completely. No idea if it would be good or bad - but it would be **interesting**. ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/104 "2024-11-28T09:31:26Z")
Blops are targeting people who don’t want to come out and find you. And it’s not cynos that people are using to get away. It’s just warping. Most economic activities are done 3-10 systems into a pipe. Once your picked up moving down that pipe people start docking. This is also why many blops groups have to rely on WHs to get in behind the initial set of eyes early on in pipes ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/105 "2024-11-28T09:33:09Z")
> [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](#): > > Blops are targeting people who don’t want to come out and find you. Except everyone in EVE doesn’t really want to come out and find you, because 9 times out of 10 it isn’t even going to remotely be a fair contest. Discretion (and avoidance) seems to be the better part of valor here… ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/106 "2024-11-28T09:33:28Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > And guess what: It was a nearly _perfect gameplay environment_ that attracted 30k And this i had to address separately. Eve hit it’s peak between 2013-2017 the game was full of cynos and caps. This period actually had one of the most liberal usage of supers and titans. So much so that it eventually led to scarcity. ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/107 "2024-11-28T09:35:13Z")
This is somewhat true but it’s also why most vets will tell you pvp starts well before both parties are on the same grid. It’s always a cat and mouse game trying to trick or catch your opponents in a situation that favors you. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/108 "2024-11-28T09:35:24Z")
> [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](#): > > Blops are targeting people who don’t want to come out and find you. And it’s not cynos that people are using to get away. It’s just warping. Then go fight people instead that also want to fight you. Or use the BOs to create a structure timer, so the owner either has to fight for it at this time or he is gonna lose what he has. But then ists equal conditions, you both can prepare for it and lets see who has done better. This whole mindset “I have to be able to enforce my PvP on the last crappy Isthar in his ano that don’t want to fight me” is hilarious. I would throw my PC out of the window if I find myself spinning a BlackOps (mostly blinged to the death) with 10 other guys doing the same just to jump on a single ratting cruiser. What the heck? Thats even lower than HS ganking. If you want PvP, go to _any_ lowsec system and begin to shoot a POCO, or Citadel of _any_ larger group. You _will_ get your fight, in no time. Those groups who do “Black Ops” don’t want PvP. They want cheap kills, thats all. They are bored rich vets, too lazy and too risk averse to simply undock a BC fleet and go brawl it out. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2024, 9:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217/109 "2024-11-28T09:36:56Z")
Just to touch on an earlier point that was made with respect to Amarr and Caldari space… We ended up with Uedama - which is kind of perma-camped. I’m not exactly sure this improved things (other than for many players to permanently avoid it). That has to have had a more negative impact on the Amarr economy than the Caldari one. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-defend-against-people-who-hunt-miners/469217.md?page=6)