# How to fix the bot problem and make people happy **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 18, 2018, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876 "2018-08-18T10:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/558 "2018-09-16T09:31:34Z")
They print so much isk, that they never have to pay CCP a cent, ever again. Can you imagine what would happen if PLEX could no longer be used to sub? ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/559 "2018-09-17T18:38:04Z")
The botters are even advertising their bots in game now. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/9gj3eh/one\_day\_toon\_advertise\_bots\_through\_eve\_mail/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/9gj3eh/one_day_toon_advertise_bots_through_eve_mail/) ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 7:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/560 "2018-09-18T07:51:16Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > The botters are even advertising their bots in game now. > [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/9gj3eh/one\_day\_toon\_advertise\_bots\_through\_eve\_mail/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/9gj3eh/one_day_toon_advertise_bots_through_eve_mail/) Botting, RMT and account hijacking walk hand-in-hand, and feed off each other in a triangle that MUST be interrupted, or it WILL kill the game. This is a cancer that has to be dealt with, if necessary, with extreme and otherwise harmful means, much like chemotherapy IRL. Cutting out individual tumors doesnt work, if they have already sent off metastasizing cancerous cells elsewhere. Bots breed more bots, and RMT and account hijacking. The longer they are allowed to proliferate, the exponentially worse they get. If CCP ever released actual figures of overall incident of all 3, aside from only how many they act on per month, peoples head would explode at how bad this has been allowed to get to the detriment of the game and everyone else in it. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 9:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/562 "2018-09-18T09:45:07Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I think you’d be surprised how many “botters” just aren’t botters at all. True. But that doesnt mean many others arent botters, nonetheless. CCP Security Team reports atleast 1k bot bans per month, so we know that much as the baseline. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 9:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/564 "2018-09-18T09:53:07Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure, but how many of those are picked up before they have any impat on the game? I think only a fraction of botters are banned per month. And those banned botters re-start, immediately, on other accounts, because CCP 2 staff Security Team doesnt have time/resources to follow the paper trail to where illegally earned isk/mats are transferred, often via many fences. If you think there are only 1k bots in EVE per month, man, I have some Moon real-estate to sell you with a great view. I would not be surprised if the actual figure is \>10x that. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > A game this size you’d expect people to try to bot continuously that doesn’t mean that the game is filled with active botters to any significant degree. Interesting “logic” you have. On the premise that EVE, as a game this size, youd expect it to be filled with bots, yet somehow you conclude that is not the case. Oo ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 10:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/566 "2018-09-18T10:29:17Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > So how many bots do you think there are? Id estimate about 10k bot characters total, working on and off, within a month. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I think that CCP probably catches the majority of them before they even get started properly. I think you are wrong, and CCPs capacity to catch them, let alone trace where they send isk/mats through fences through multiple transactions, is severely limited at ~1k/month, due to lack of resources/time of the 2 staff Security Team whom have many other infractions to investigate/deal with on top of that. Not tracing down and confiscating illegal isk/mats means CCP are probably re-banning the same botters, over and over, in rotation, from the same total botter pool. The ban, especially when now reduced to only a 3 day suspension, is merely an annoyance to botters, even with the SP transfer lock. Its important to understand and realize that bots breed more bots. Its rare that a botter runs only one bot for long. Invariably it leads to 2, then 4 and more bots. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 10:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/568 "2018-09-18T10:35:10Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I just don’t agree that the problem is as rife as you seem to think it is. What is your estimate of incidence of botted characters in EVE per month? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 10:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/570 "2018-09-18T10:39:08Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I mean, you say 1k/month is “severley limited” but if there are a lot more than 1k joining per month and 1k are getting booted then by now this game should be looking like the final days of Diaspora. Botters dont quit EVE when caught and banned. They just re-start again on other accounts, especially with illegally earned funds transferred through a net of transactions to other accounts. How inconvenient a ban is to a botter, depends on how lucrative the bot was, how long it ran without detection/ban and how expensive it was to train/buy/equip the bot character. Generally they break even pretty quick, and the rest is pure profit, even after a ban, and especially if they managed to transfer their illegal income through “plausible deniability” transactions. In anycase “banning” a botter, does not stop them. They just come right back again with other accounts, using the same software, and illegally earned wealth to fund it, and consider it a “bad luck” outcome, and just get right back to what they where doing all over again, until CCP again invests time/resources to find them and ban them, again, if ever. Botters COUNT on CCPs Security Teams small size and limited time/resources. 2 staff is like 2 cops policing a town with 30k people. Every bot they catch is time invested in that, that isnt spent catching another one. Utterly inadequate. The very consistent ban reports from the Security Team show they are operating at maximum capacity per month, and just dont have the resources/time to catch more. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 10:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/572 "2018-09-18T10:52:07Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I think we’re ging to have to agree to disagree here. You didnt answer my question: > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > What is your estimate of incidence of botted characters in EVE per month? This is not an unreasonable request, since you think my estimate is too high. Please reciprocate with an answer to the above. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > most of the bot detection will be automated We dont know that. My deduction based on ban rates, is that CCP infact has very little automated algorithms to check client sent data for bots to create flags for staff investigation, and no auto-bans. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/574 "2018-09-18T11:20:43Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I said I don’t have enough information to make any sort of estimate that wouldn’t be wildly guessing, and that’s exactly what you’re doing If you have no estimate of your own, then what basis do you have to claim mine as over the top? With your self-stated lack of information, my estimate is as valid as any. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/576 "2018-09-18T11:23:50Z")
You claimed mine was exaggerated. What basis do you have for that, if you dont have an estimate of your own? ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/577 "2018-09-18T11:24:37Z")
You two belong to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/579 "2018-09-18T11:26:02Z")
Anymore traction on the existence of Probebots? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/580 "2018-09-18T11:54:44Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Just that by your estimate pretty much everyone I run into in EVE would be a bot, where in reality I rarely see bots. No, my estimate is 10k total on/off over a month. Botters sometimes also cycle bot characters to avoid detection. My estimate also includes market bots, which you noted also. You wont “see” bots" unless you watch them for a protracted period, and then test it with engaging them in chat or with weapons, neither of which are conclusive evidence. I dont think my estimate is exaggerated. I think you grossly underestimate their proliferation. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/582 "2018-09-18T12:00:26Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > So you think I underestimate and I think you overestimate. You never gave an estimate, just stated mine as overstated. That concretely means your estimate is lower, even though you wont state one. * * * Do you think: 1. CCP is doing enough as is now to fight bot proliferation? OR 1. CCP can and should do more to fight bot proliferation? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/584 "2018-09-18T13:25:06Z")
Second time I asked you a specific question, and you ignored it. Wtf has happened to people? They cant answer simple direct questions anymore? Do you think I typed the following just for fun or rhetorically? > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Do you think: > > 1. CCP is doing enough as is now to fight bot proliferation? > > OR > > 1. CCP can and should do more to fight bot proliferation? * * * > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I don’t however think it helps to have players who clearly have no actiual information second guessing CCP and insulting their security team. We have actual information on bans per month. **Nobody** has insulted the Security Team, least of all I. Just pointed out that they are operating at max capacity and dont have time/resources to catch more rule violators. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/585 "2018-09-18T13:34:23Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > rhetorically To be fair, do you expect a particular answer? I feel you probably do. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/587 "2018-09-18T13:49:32Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Yes, it’s the second time you’ve tried to box me in with a loaded question. How was it a loaded question, when its either or, as your choice? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I can see the fact that it’s not working frustrates you. Disappointing would be more accurate. Even school age kids know how to answer a specific question in proper syntax. Its not hard. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You are insulting them, that’s exactly what you’re doing when you make up “facts” then use them to claim they aren’t doing their jobs well enough. I havent made up any facts. Nor have I in anyway shape or form insulted the Security Team. Just pointed out that they cant exceed their monthly average due to time/resource constraints. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > How do you know they are operating at max capacity? Again, you’re throwing out guesses and stating them as fact. Are you saying they are not? **THAT** would be insulting them, as implying they arent working at 100% efficiency with time/resources, and slacking on the jonb. * * * Your trolling is failing. No doubt you dont want CCP to do more to stop botting, as you benefit from it. Otherwise you would not have an issue with agreeing that they should and can do more. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/589 "2018-09-18T14:08:50Z")
Didnt read. The consistent average in Security Team stats show they are operating at 100% and cannot do more per month with their limited available time/resources. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/591 "2018-09-18T14:29:59Z")
Do you, or have you, botted on any of your accounts? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876.md?page=27) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876.md?page=29)