# How to fix the bot problem and make people happy **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 18, 2018, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876 "2018-08-18T10:09:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/103 "2018-09-04T08:25:04Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > You are the one trolling, … Sorry, your response above seems very much like a trolling to me. I then don’t care any further for you. Why should I? Somebody else did understand me just fine, so why not you? If it’s the lack of experience then don’t expect me to explain botting in more detail to you. This would only defy the topic and you really don’t need to know it. It’s the fairest answer I’m willing to give you. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/104 "2018-09-04T08:27:19Z")
No point in discussing with someone that cant/wont reciprocate answers to specific questions. Im discounting your posts as the evasive garbage they are. You answered two questions of your own making, not the two I asked. I understand your responses just fine, but they are not answers to the questions I asked. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/105 "2018-09-04T08:40:43Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > I understand your responses just fine … Do you, really? Botting is against the EULA and discussions on bugs and exploits are not allowed. So how would you like me to answer your questions? 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/106 "2018-09-04T08:43:05Z")
Now you “change” your answers, to your own questions (not mine), to hide behind TOS/EULA. Discussion of botting and remedies to it is clearly not against TOS/EULA, nor forum rules, as threads discussing them are frequent and extended. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/107 "2018-09-04T08:44:41Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Now you “change” your answers, to your own questions (not mine), to hide behind TOS/EULA. Again, you’re just trolling. I am not hiding behind the EULA. I am respecting it and so should you. … ### **2.** **Specifically restricted content.** EVE Online holds ESRB Teen and PEGI 12 ratings. All content posted to the EVE Online forums must be teen rated. In addition to this, the EVE Online forums are not for discussion of real life current affairs, news, politics or religion. Discussion should revolve around EVE Online and its community. For these reasons, specific content is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. These are: - Pornography - Profanity - Real Money Trading (RMT) - Discussion of Warnings & Bans - Discussion of Moderation - Private communications with CCP - In-Game Bugs & Exploits - Real World Religion - Real World Politics - Content that distorts the forum layout ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/108 "2018-09-04T08:47:37Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > Again, you’re just trolling. This is your other evasion, repeatedly falsely accusing me of “trolling” for pointing out that you did not answer my questions. You claimed to be a software engineer, and accused me of not understanding what can be done to remedy bots by CCP. So I then asked you about that, specifically. You did not answer it. You claimed Delayed Local in Player NS would become an advantage to botters, so I specifically asked you to explain that. You did not answer it. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/109 "2018-09-04T08:48:31Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > This is your other evasion, … I still won’t discuss details with you, Salvos. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/110 "2018-09-04T08:50:24Z")
Thats fine. I have no interest in discussing with someone that wont answer specific questions, especially when those questions pertain to you explaining your previous claims. Id sooner discuss this with a high-schooler, whom still knows how to answer a query with the correct syntax. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/111 "2018-09-04T08:50:54Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Id sooner discuss this with a high-schooler, whom still knows how to answer a query with the correct syntax. Just more trolling. Please stop. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/112 "2018-09-04T08:54:35Z")
There are many software solutions CCP could implement to hamper bots, ranging from in-game mechanics improvements, to better detection systems of bot-like behavior for staff to revue. Delayed Local in Player NS would not become an advantage to botters. It would hamper them. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/113 "2018-09-04T08:57:23Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Delayed Local in Player NS would not become an advantage to botters. It would hamper them. … > [@Whitehound](#): > > Don’t try to fight them on your own or think of them as loot pinatas. You want them completely gone. Report them, and try not to play their game. > [@Whitehound](#): > > Anything you think would hinder the botter will also hinder the player, but because the botter remains the better player will they always come up with a solution, which beats your game-play, because this is the very nature of botting, to create an advantage over you and to use it. > [@Whitehound](#): > > To make a game riskier means bots and players will both have it more difficult. The bot will however dominate over the player. So while many of the suggestions made would provide more bot kills do these also provide more player kills, and with very likely a lot more killed players than bots. This then becomes the advantage of the botters even when they lose a few more ships than before. All they need to do in order to win is to lose less ships than an actual player. Those were the answers I’m willing to give you. You really don’t understand how this will work in their favour? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 8:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/114 "2018-09-04T08:58:21Z")
You have no business responding to this Whitehound, you made it clear you wont discuss with me, so then dont, and I wont discuss with you, so stop. You had your chance. Stop gish posting past my ontopic posts, which you refuse to answer and have stated you refuse to discuss with me. You claimed you wouldnt discuss with me, yet still did so when I made my view non-specific for all. ---
**Author:** ![Veryez](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veryez/32/508712_2.png) [@Veryez](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veryez)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/115 "2018-09-04T09:23:27Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > You cannot fight software with software. It’ll always be an even match. All you can do is to remove the players, ban their IPs, improve the detection and keep throwing them out. Your thinking is a bit on the narrow side. While you are correct in theory, in application you fail to see the whole picture. You may not be able to beat all botters, but you can increase the difficulty to an extent that it is very difficult to meet all possibilities. Chess is different than EvE in that its rules are fixed and unchanging. EvE doesn’t need to be. Why don’t people use bots for PvP? As a sofeware engineer, imagine trying to program all the possibilities you encounter in PvP. In theory it is possible, but is the effort involved worth the outcome? Sure for some it will be, but for most? By all means, CCP should continue to aggressively pursue botters. But they should also be changing NPC tactics, spawn locations, composition. I’d even throw in a randomizer that based on server count would load different NPC setups. Since CCP does multiple updates, they could make small tweaks. Maybe even have NPC’s challenge you on occasion and wait for a numbered response (make it a private convo so you’re not talking in local), wrong answer and the site de-spawns (you could use a random number generator to generate the question and the window location - something that people could easily adapt to). Sure botters would adjust their programs, but the more variables you throw in, the more some will say it’s not worth it, because programs are written by people and people have limits. CCP should always pursue all avenues to stop botting. Software might not be ‘the solution’, but it can certainly be part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Zachri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zachri/32/69948_2.png) [@Zachri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zachri)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/116 "2018-09-04T09:23:44Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > You have no business responding to this Whitehound, you made it clear you wont discuss with me, so then dont, and I wont discuss with you, so stop. > > You had your chance. > > Stop gish posting past my ontopic posts, which you refuse to answer and have stated you refuse to discuss with me. Dude, drop the troll bone. You’re not helping yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/117 "2018-09-04T09:28:13Z")
> [@Veryez](#): > > Your thinking is a bit on the narrow side. While you are correct in theory, in application you fail to see the whole picture. You may not be able to beat all botters, but you can increase the difficulty to an extent that it is very difficult to meet all possibilities. A bot doesn’t have to be perfect. They in fact never truly are. They have flaws and make mistakes. But as long as they provide an advantage through response time, repetition, somewhat smart responses to various situations, and can run 23 hours each day does it not matter. You then need to ask yourself why you even want to change the game for them when you don’t want them in the game. Why do you want to continue playing with them or against them on the player level? You want them completely gone. ---
**Author:** ![Zachri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zachri/32/69948_2.png) [@Zachri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zachri)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/118 "2018-09-04T09:29:03Z")
> [@Veryez](#): > > Why don’t people use bots for PvP? Actually, they do. There’s something called rolling nurses. Which is basically a cell of logi’s running an anchor / rr script. Versatile, less so in small to medium type engagements, much more so in large scale environments. So you don’t see much use of logi’s with it, but a lot with faxes. Equally, there’s something just about every major group uses, force multipliers. Basically doctrine characters run in a combined and centralised manner. Again, still only viable / used in large scale / defensive type of environments, but it’s something which has existed since the days CCP had people flip sovereignty by shooting NPC station shields in nullsec. Which is a long, long time ago. Define PVP here. A duel is PVP. A war is PVP. We don’t see people running combat bots in small stuff. We do see them use automated triggers from scanners at the undock. We don’t see pilots using a scripted falcon (not anymore at least, was a thing at some point in time), but you do see people adding meat to big stuff, purposely. ---
**Author:** ![Zachri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zachri/32/69948_2.png) [@Zachri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zachri)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/119 "2018-09-04T09:31:06Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > A bot doesn’t have to be perfect. They in fact never truly are. They have flaws and make mistakes. But as long as they provide an advantage through response time, repetition, somewhat smart responses to various situations, and can run 23 hours each day does it not matter. It’s like self driving cars and planes. Perfection is costly and unachieveable anyway, and human perception is what it is, so it only needs to make demonstrably less mistakes than humans. And people wonder why a game with such a big footprint in the behavioural side of economies of scale might be vulnerable to botting … ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/120 "2018-09-04T09:35:57Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > can run 23 hours each day does it not matter. This shows how uninformed you are, and unimaginative when it comes to bot detection. Its physically impossible for a player to play 23hrs, everyday. By day 3-4 they will be clinically in serious jeopardy, and psychotic from lack of sleep. Activity levels anywhere near that, are a clear indicator of a bot or account sharing, and should be readily detectable from CCP’s data. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/121 "2018-09-04T09:41:25Z")
> [@Zachri](#): > > It’s like self driving cars and planes. Perfection is costly and unachieveable anyway, and human perception is what it is, so it only needs to make demonstrably less mistakes than humans. It doesn’t even have to be less mistakes than humans in some cases. A mining bot could be worse than a normal player. But as long as it automates the entire process and allows the botter not to be at the keyboard for hours then that’s already the win. When they can mine 200m ISKs with a Retriever, but lose the ship in the process, which only costs 20m, then they still make 180m ISKs. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2018, 9:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876/122 "2018-09-04T09:45:54Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > This shows how uninformed you are, … > Its physically impossible for a player to play 23hrs, everyday. Again, you’re trolling and you only lack the knowledge. There are ways around it. I won’t tell you how though. Maybe Zachri has got the interest to tell you. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/how-to-fix-the-bot-problem-and-make-people-happy/98876.md?page=7)