# I regret to inform that we still don't die enough **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** pvp\ **Created:** [November 15, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984 "2021-11-15T16:34:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/201 "2021-11-25T08:52:13Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > If ganking didn’t exist, people would still be buying shield extenders for PvE or for PvP outside ganking. Why would a highsec miner need shield extenders if ganking didn’t exist in highsec ? And no, even in highsec ratting most of my fit is there to increase EHP against gankers…as I’ve seldom had shields down to almost zero during ratting…and could simply run away if that happened. I would always far rather increase firepower than shield…and its only the risk of coming across half a dozen Catalysts with webifiers, or hanging about at some gate, that causes the extent of defensive measures. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 8:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/202 "2021-11-25T08:58:47Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > No, my argument is that ganking actually generates more product than it destroys. You are arguing that people just make stuff regardless, but if that’s the case then even ganking doesn’t stop them making way more stuff than gets destroyed…so the argument that people make stuff anyway is a bit of a red herring. The only real issue is whether more stuff is created **because** of ganking than is destroyed **by** it…whether ganking is really reducing the amount of stuff in Eve or just adding to it. You have to look at the economy as a whole, and not from the perspective of a set of particular products. Let’s take mining barges, for example. Without ganking, there wouldn’t be a need to produce as many mining barges as today. However, producers wouldn’t simply build fewer barges and _that’s it;_ they’d reallocate the extra production capacity they have from producing fewer barges across the entire market, pushing down mineral/item price indices _as a whole_. To give an (arbitrary) example, decreasing the need for barges by 50% might result in a 0.5% price drop across the economy _as a whole_. The missing component in your mental equation for this is that there’s a certain amount of economic output for which all of the game’s producers are responsible, and that wouldn’t decrease **unless** those players decide to play the game _less_. Producers always operate at their own maximum capacities (which differ between every individual player, but every player **always tries to produce as much as they can** ). Ganking is responsible for consuming a portion of this production. It’s not responsible for any _extra_ production over some kind of baseline level, because all producers always operate at their respective personal capacites. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/203 "2021-11-25T09:11:53Z")
> [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > What about the guy who built those 50k shield extenders you just mentioned above. He has to move them somewhere he wants to sell them. Contracts that to a hauler and that hauler gets ganked. 50% drop rate. 25k shield extenders wiped out in a single gank. Well you are arguing against each other…as Ramona demands that ISK are only generated by bounties and NPC contracts 🙂 Sure, the odd ship gets blown up and several thousand shield extenders with it. But the seller simply wouldn’t be selling if that were having a major impact on their business. Destiny tells us there are only 50 to 200 gankers active…and their actual impact, though annoying, is likely minimal. But its not just shield extenders. There’s Damage Control, steel plates, and rigs for shield and also to control the extra capacitor usage that all that requires. And the thousands of drones mining barges, Ventures, etc, are fitted out with. Add to that that fact that not all of this gets destroyed in a gank…which is precisely why they bring along haulers to claim any loot. I mean, ganking for ISK ( rather than for lulz )…the whole idea is NOT to destroy stuff but to grab it and own it instead. Which makes the claim that ganking is anti-inflationarily destroying stuff look even more like nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/204 "2021-11-25T09:16:59Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Destiny tells us there are only 50 to 200 gankers active…and their actual impact, though annoying, is likely minimal. No, their impact is actually very significant. I never said that they have little impact, just that there are few of them. A small number of players is doing a lot of work. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/205 "2021-11-25T09:23:53Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > The missing component in your mental equation for this is that there’s a certain amount of economic output for which all of the game’s producers are responsible, and that wouldn’t decrease **unless** those players decide to play the game _les_ Well…no…you haven’t explained why the economy could be any more out of control and people just making stuff regardless **without** ganking…than it would be out of control and people just making stuff regardless **with** ganking. If people are gonna just churn out vast amounts anyway, they could still churn out 200% more than anyone was ‘using’ even if gankers were destroying the entire lot every day ! The issue is very simply whether ganking indirectly causes the production and sale of more stuff than ganking itself destroys. And bear in mind that in many cases the idea of the gank is NOT to destroy stuff but to loot. People who’s entire function is supposedly to **destroy** stuff don’t bring along massive great haulers to carry off the swag ! ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/206 "2021-11-25T09:31:50Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > The issue is very simply whether ganking indirectly causes the production and sale of more stuff than ganking itself destroys. It doesn’t. A miner who logs in to mine for 4 hours every day wouldn’t log in to mine only for 3 hours every day if ganking didn’t exist. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > And bear in mind that in many cases the idea of the gank is NOT to destroy stuff but to loot. People who’s entire function is supposedly to **destroy** stuff don’t bring along massive great haulers to carry off the swag ! Doesn’t matter, since the drop rate is about 50%, and the hull and rigs are destroyed. The bulk of every kill disappears into the ether. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/207 "2021-11-25T09:35:03Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > No, their impact is actually very significant. So our friendly neighbourhood gankers…soooo concerned with destroying stuff to prevent the economy spiraling out of control…took all the ‘dropped’ stuff in this example to the nearest recycling centre ? I’m gonna vote for the Green Party in the hope they declare theft to be a ‘green’ activity that will save the planet 🙂 > **[Gila | Sir Magnuss | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/96915046/)** > > Sir Magnuss (The Galactic Province) lost their Gila in Osmon (The Forge). Final Blow by Caldari Citizen 2119308541 (PIROGI S KARTOSHKOJ) flying in a Coercer. Total Value: 1,391,478,058.39 ISK ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/208 "2021-11-25T09:40:01Z")
You’re just flat-out straw-manning me now. I mean, I get that this is a false-flag trolling op, but you should at least maintain the pretense of arguing in good faith. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Gankers aren’t Robin Hood. They operate in their own interests. But gankers share a symbiotic relationship with the community, > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Doesn’t matter, since the drop rate is about 50%, and the hull and rigs are destroyed. The bulk of every kill disappears into the ether. ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/209 "2021-11-25T09:40:57Z")
Ok but let’s look at the equation Say seven catalysts take out a procurer. All the ships get destroyed? Accepted? So what survives is 50% of the fittings and cargo. Going by zkill I’m seeing total a a typical loot drop of 2mill from each catalyst being generous. And a procurer is showing as typically a 7mill to 8mill average drop. Again being generous. So if we accept your premise that this value only exists because of ganking. Then we are saying 21mill has been added to the economy because of this gank. Fair. So then look at this gank. > **[Providence | Sertun | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/96883081/)** > > Sertun (Natus ex Cinere) lost their Providence in Odin (Devoid). Final Blow by Customs Agent Charley (Customs Enforcement Agency) flying in a Catalyst. Total Value: 13,620,584,472.11 ISK A providence ganked in a 0.6 system over 6bill destroyed. Over 3 bill if you exclude the value of the ship. The cargo is a variety of things not related to ganking. So in order for ganking to be adding isk to the economy 153 procurer ganks would need to have occurred and that’s excluding the value of the providence itself which would require over 300 ganks to reach a equal position And I’m looking at 6 providence ganks in highsec over the last week. Haven’t even looked at other freighters I’m only counting around 70 dead procurers in highsec over the same period. Half of one providence gank. The theory just doesn’t hold up ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/210 "2021-11-25T09:45:07Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > It doesn’t. A miner who logs in to mine for 4 hours every day wouldn’t log in to mine only for 3 hours every day if ganking didn’t exist. The miner wouldn’t have added 13m ISK worth of production to Eve in the form of shield extenders, Damage Control, rigs, yada yada…if ganking didn’t exist ! ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 9:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/211 "2021-11-25T09:46:19Z")
Maybe not, but they would’ve added 13M ISK worth of production to other sectors of the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 10:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/212 "2021-11-25T10:06:13Z")
> [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > A providence ganked in a 0.6 system over 6bill destroyed. You sort of miss the point. How much of the stuff on board was only being transported in the first place because ganking exists. I notice a lot of shield boosters. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 10:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/213 "2021-11-25T10:10:07Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I get that this is a false-flag trolling op Ah…so the supply of tin foil hats seems to have got through Uedama OK. ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 10:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/214 "2021-11-25T10:20:59Z")
Yes 1 specifc shield faction shield module worth over a bill which every ganker is dying to fit to their catalyst for it to be blown up by Concord 🙂 Look at the bigger picture of whats being moved. There are expired boosters, homeless, clothing rewards and all manner of crap nobody cares about. This has all the markings of a player moving to a new home and just throwing all their inventory a big batch to be moved. Its hardly a ganking support operation. Ultimately it doesnt matter what anything in this ship is going to be used for. What matters is whether an activity is adding to the overall isk value of items in the game or taking away from it. And when you look at the value of destrution associated with freighter ganks like the one above its very difficult to believe a few thousand shield boosters and a few more thousand blasters, rails or whatever are being manufactured on the scale that balances out the equation. What is happening is encouraging isk to keep flowing through the economy. Ratters can keep hunting for the 1bill shiled module coz it stays rare, explorers can still find and sell their datacores because there where datacores destroyed herem, as well as datacores used up in inventing t2 bpc’s for the creation of type 2 modules that were destroyed here, miners can keep mining and selling ores as loads of ore was used in the creation of these items which presumably need to be replaced. And manufacturers have ships and modules to build. And mission runners lp is still worth something because implants and other things from the faction store went boom to. Every single activity in eve stays viable because ships like that providence get killed……. 6 a week (not including the other faction equivalents. ---
**Author:** ![Kylanti\_Hendar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kylanti_hendar/32/385538_2.png) [@Kylanti\_Hendar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kylanti_Hendar)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 10:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/215 "2021-11-25T10:35:10Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Producers always operate at their own maximum capacities This is wrong. Some producers might work like that but others will make items as and when they see a profit to be made. On the other hand the argument the ganking adds to the amount of material in the game is also complete rubbish. A quick look at the monthly economic report shows how important high sec destruction is in EvE. The Forge is always one of the regions with the most destruction and ganking will be a good chunk of this. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/216 "2021-11-25T10:40:08Z")
> [@Kylanti\_Hendar](#): > > Some producers might work like that but others will make items as and when they see a profit to be made. I am speaking about the baseline economic production, as in raw resource acquisition, loot/LP from missions, etc. Actual _production_ will vary according to the market, but the underlying material wealth will remain the same. Like I said, someone who logs into the game every day to mine for 4 hours won’t suddenly switch to mining only 3 hours per day just because there’s less demand for certain types of end products. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 10:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/217 "2021-11-25T10:48:24Z")
Your comparison is somewhat dishonest…comparing just Procs to Providences. A glance at yesterday’s stats show 19bn worth of Orca destroyed, 3bn worth of Mackinaw…and I can see why you deliberately chose highsec for just 1 Proc…as a glance at all areas shows no less than **48** Procs destroyed yesterday in a single day ! ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/218 "2021-11-25T10:55:09Z")
> [@Kylanti\_Hendar](#): > > On the other hand the argument the ganking adds to the amount of material in the game is also complete rubbish. A quick look at the monthly economic report shows how important high sec destruction is in EvE. Where were those two incompatible ? Of course ganking destroys stuff. My point was that a fair portion of the stuff ganking destroys is stuff that it has itself generated. That is absolutely undeniable. Nobody can pretend that Orcas, Procs, Mackinaws, etc, etc **aren’t** fitted out as they are precisely because ganking exists. ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/219 "2021-11-25T11:11:04Z")
yes exactly. Its way more complicated isnt it 🙂 But the thing about the orca is that the cost is all hull………which is destroyed in the gank. Your argument is about what is added to the economy. And there were only 2 orca deaths in highsec yesterday. One dropped 20mill and other dropped 100mill. So 120mill added to the economy. Not 19bill (no idea where that number came from) Ganking = highsec. lowsec is not ganking. Its the same way im not including freighter kills in low or null etc that were ambushed. Those procs in lowsec would have the shield extenders fitted regardless of whether ganking was in the game or not as its a pvp area. So those shiled extenders are not manufactured because ganking exists………just because pvp exists. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2021, 11:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/220 "2021-11-25T11:19:34Z")
> [@Ogeko\_Nightwolf](#): > > It’s not a PVP when it’s 5y veteran VS 1-month-old pilot. It’s a slaughter. In other shooter games combat sessions start with more or less equal possibilities and you gather your perks during that session because of your experience. Now it’s a survival experience in the sense that a novice is running like a mouse from one dark corner to another, and vets are hunting them down. I am not saying that’s a wrong concept but it doesn’t exactly encourages PVP Good to see someone else sees it like it actually is…rather than all the mealy-mouthed platitudes so many give. The real problem in Eve is that you don’t get anything like enough of the sort of ‘practice’ you get anywhere else. For example PvE practice for noobs is not PvE if you’ve got to be constantly looking over your shoulder to avoid some ganker with 5 years experience butting in. The problem in Eve is not that you are thrown in the shark infested waters without a life jacket and have to compete with unfriendly natives who’ve had years of experience of turning noobs into BBQ…but that the agent missions are way too short and you have nowhere to go simply practice spear fishing without the local cannibals showing up with a pot and cooking utensils. THAT is why so many don’t stay beyond the first week. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=11)